1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:14,014 --> 00:00:17,142 Oh, hello! Bonjour! 4 00:00:17,225 --> 00:00:18,268 Welcome. 5 00:00:20,061 --> 00:00:22,188 Voila. Oh, magnifique. 6 00:00:22,272 --> 00:00:23,481 Peace and quiet. 7 00:00:23,565 --> 00:00:26,609 It's so wonderful to be so far away from the crowd. 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,154 Far away from the stage. 9 00:00:29,696 --> 00:00:33,033 I worked all my life to get this. 10 00:00:35,118 --> 00:00:37,662 The music is finished, 11 00:00:38,246 --> 00:00:40,457 and the children have gone now. 12 00:00:41,249 --> 00:00:43,460 Have I stayed too long 13 00:00:43,543 --> 00:00:45,170 At the fair? 14 00:00:45,795 --> 00:00:47,672 Yeah, this is my favorite song, I think. 15 00:00:48,381 --> 00:00:49,591 It's a story... 16 00:00:50,216 --> 00:00:52,010 of our life, you know. We've been... 17 00:00:52,719 --> 00:00:55,346 having a happy time, going dancing in discotheques, 18 00:00:55,430 --> 00:00:57,640 and now, unfortunately, 19 00:00:57,724 --> 00:01:00,477 it's all over, all these happy times. 20 00:01:01,269 --> 00:01:02,645 Now, this is heaven. 21 00:01:03,563 --> 00:01:05,397 And that's all right with me. 22 00:01:06,816 --> 00:01:09,569 I've had my wonderful time. 23 00:01:14,866 --> 00:01:16,826 Tonight, we're very happy to have 24 00:01:16,910 --> 00:01:20,914 the European queen of disco, Miss Amanda Lear! 25 00:01:22,457 --> 00:01:25,585 It's important to say that practically everything 26 00:01:25,668 --> 00:01:28,463 that you have read in my biography 27 00:01:28,545 --> 00:01:29,881 is not true. 28 00:01:33,926 --> 00:01:36,262 There is absolutely no truth 29 00:01:36,346 --> 00:01:40,558 about me having my sex changed. 30 00:01:40,642 --> 00:01:42,352 I never changed my sex. 31 00:01:42,435 --> 00:01:44,187 I don't want to change my sex. 32 00:01:46,356 --> 00:01:49,275 I've invited to join us the most celebrated transsexual, 33 00:01:49,359 --> 00:01:51,277 I think that's the word, in the country. 34 00:01:51,820 --> 00:01:55,448 She, or if you insist, he, is April Ashley. 35 00:01:55,532 --> 00:01:56,950 The boy from the slums of Liverpool 36 00:01:57,033 --> 00:01:58,118 who became a fashion model. 37 00:02:00,662 --> 00:02:02,372 Biologically, I'm a male, 38 00:02:03,081 --> 00:02:04,624 but socially, I'm a female. 39 00:02:04,707 --> 00:02:07,001 And you decided at a very early age up there 40 00:02:07,085 --> 00:02:08,169 that you were female? 41 00:02:08,252 --> 00:02:09,586 Well, I didn't decide. 42 00:02:09,670 --> 00:02:11,256 I don't know who decides those things, 43 00:02:11,339 --> 00:02:13,174 but I certainly didn't decide. 44 00:02:14,926 --> 00:02:16,261 Dalí was fascinated 45 00:02:16,344 --> 00:02:18,721 by the whole sex change aspect of your life. 46 00:02:18,805 --> 00:02:20,056 I mean, it's ridiculous to deny that 47 00:02:20,140 --> 00:02:21,474 because April Ashley's book is there. 48 00:02:21,558 --> 00:02:22,934 I couldn't understand... 49 00:02:23,726 --> 00:02:26,728 why she made up so many stories in her book. 50 00:02:48,793 --> 00:02:52,922 I was born 29th of April, 1935, 51 00:02:53,590 --> 00:02:56,176 and I was christened George Jamieson. 52 00:02:57,510 --> 00:03:00,180 I grew up in Liverpool, 53 00:03:00,263 --> 00:03:01,514 which was very rough. 54 00:03:03,141 --> 00:03:05,685 I was never... anything, you know, 55 00:03:05,768 --> 00:03:07,562 a girl or a boy, I was an "it." 56 00:03:09,063 --> 00:03:10,565 So my brothers and sisters 57 00:03:10,648 --> 00:03:12,650 were always very embarrassed by me. 58 00:03:13,651 --> 00:03:16,446 My mother used to hit me every day. 59 00:03:16,529 --> 00:03:17,906 So I was like an angel, 60 00:03:17,989 --> 00:03:20,366 I tried to stay out of everybody's way. 61 00:03:24,495 --> 00:03:27,248 It's terribly surreal and difficult to-- 62 00:03:27,332 --> 00:03:30,585 to have the mind of one thing 63 00:03:30,668 --> 00:03:32,670 when you're meant to be another. 64 00:03:32,754 --> 00:03:34,881 I wouldn't know how to put it any other way. 65 00:03:34,964 --> 00:03:38,885 Because my mind was completely that of a woman, 66 00:03:38,927 --> 00:03:42,263 and my body was also of a woman. 67 00:03:43,473 --> 00:03:46,517 Except this petite inconvenience. 68 00:03:49,478 --> 00:03:52,398 It was a terrible problem of growing up 69 00:03:52,482 --> 00:03:54,692 and being terribly feminine 70 00:03:54,776 --> 00:03:56,986 and yet having to behave like a boy. 71 00:03:57,737 --> 00:04:01,074 So as all my brothers, and my father, and uncles, 72 00:04:01,157 --> 00:04:02,867 and everyone had gone to sea, 73 00:04:02,951 --> 00:04:05,036 I thought I ought to behave in the same way. 74 00:04:05,119 --> 00:04:07,956 -What? Sort of be robust and-- -Be a sailor. 75 00:04:11,793 --> 00:04:12,919 To get out of the Navy, 76 00:04:13,002 --> 00:04:14,754 you actually attempted to kill yourself, didn't you? 77 00:04:14,837 --> 00:04:15,964 It wasn't to get out of the Navy. 78 00:04:16,047 --> 00:04:18,800 I'd just gotten incredibly depressed. 79 00:04:18,882 --> 00:04:20,093 About who you were? 80 00:04:20,176 --> 00:04:21,803 About what I was. 81 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:25,223 I tried to commit suicide again 82 00:04:25,306 --> 00:04:28,351 by jumping in the River Mersey, of all places. 83 00:04:29,852 --> 00:04:32,814 And this young chap jumped onto a pontoon 84 00:04:33,690 --> 00:04:37,485 and grabbed me by the hair and pulled me out, 85 00:04:37,568 --> 00:04:39,445 and I was furious with him. 86 00:04:39,529 --> 00:04:41,447 But by the same token, 87 00:04:41,572 --> 00:04:44,284 that was one of the first pieces of publicity I ever got, 88 00:04:44,367 --> 00:04:47,328 when it said, "Youth Saved By Long Hair." 89 00:04:47,412 --> 00:04:49,372 So, it was quite amusing. 90 00:04:50,123 --> 00:04:52,292 And then they put me in the loony bin. 91 00:04:53,543 --> 00:04:57,380 I had a year's treatment, which was shock treatment. 92 00:04:57,463 --> 00:05:00,675 They even gave me massive doses of male hormones 93 00:05:00,758 --> 00:05:02,343 -to try and... -Make you more-- 94 00:05:02,427 --> 00:05:04,178 -...make me masculine. -Right. 95 00:05:04,262 --> 00:05:05,888 Well, as you can see, they didn't succeed. 96 00:05:07,765 --> 00:05:09,100 And then after a year, they said, 97 00:05:09,183 --> 00:05:11,185 "Listen, we're making you physically ill. 98 00:05:11,269 --> 00:05:12,478 We have to let you go 99 00:05:12,562 --> 00:05:15,064 and you have to sort of cope with your life." 100 00:05:26,701 --> 00:05:28,077 Everybody kept saying to me, 101 00:05:28,161 --> 00:05:30,621 "Why don't you go and work at The Carrousel?" 102 00:05:31,289 --> 00:05:33,374 And of course, I'd never heard of The Carrousel. 103 00:06:32,100 --> 00:06:35,686 Thank you for honoring us with your presence and your history. 104 00:06:38,314 --> 00:06:39,315 Merci, merci. 105 00:06:39,399 --> 00:06:41,234 If we could start by... 106 00:06:41,317 --> 00:06:43,945 Maybe you introduce yourself first, Allanah? 107 00:06:49,909 --> 00:06:51,536 I knew about Bambi for a long time, 108 00:06:51,619 --> 00:06:53,746 but I met her for the first time 109 00:06:53,830 --> 00:06:57,082 at the dedication of the promenade to Coccinelle, 110 00:06:57,834 --> 00:07:01,129 where I saw her perform for the first time. 111 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,676 And I was really impressed and sort of like... 112 00:07:07,969 --> 00:07:09,804 mystified by her. 113 00:07:09,887 --> 00:07:12,348 And now she's like a mother to me, so... 114 00:07:13,224 --> 00:07:14,350 That's our story. 115 00:07:15,518 --> 00:07:16,519 Okay. 116 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,835 We drove up to The Carrousel, 117 00:07:40,877 --> 00:07:43,963 and I met Monsieur Marcel, the owner, 118 00:07:44,839 --> 00:07:46,716 and-and he thought I was a girl. 119 00:07:46,757 --> 00:07:49,385 And I had to show my passport. 120 00:07:49,469 --> 00:07:52,472 And he said, "Can you sing?" and I said, "No." 121 00:07:52,555 --> 00:07:55,391 He said, "Can you dance?" and I said, "No." 122 00:07:55,475 --> 00:07:58,102 He said, "What can you do?" I said, "I don't know." 123 00:07:58,186 --> 00:08:01,022 He said, "Okay, you've got a job." So... 124 00:08:18,915 --> 00:08:22,502 When I walked into the dressing room the first time, 125 00:08:23,419 --> 00:08:25,421 we had a Black entertainer, 126 00:08:25,505 --> 00:08:28,716 we had quite a few Arab entertainers, 127 00:08:28,799 --> 00:08:32,053 and other people of various colors. 128 00:08:32,970 --> 00:08:36,057 And I said to Les-Lee, the Canadian artist, 129 00:08:36,140 --> 00:08:38,226 who was sort of mentoring me, 130 00:08:38,308 --> 00:08:41,102 I said, "Are they all related?" 131 00:08:41,187 --> 00:08:44,065 He burst out laughing and said, 132 00:08:44,148 --> 00:08:45,566 "You silly thing!" 133 00:08:46,192 --> 00:08:47,818 He said, "Don't be so stupid." 134 00:08:47,902 --> 00:08:49,820 He said, "They've all been to the same surgeon. 135 00:08:49,904 --> 00:08:51,697 They've all got the same nose." 136 00:08:51,781 --> 00:08:53,866 "That's why they look alike." 137 00:08:55,868 --> 00:08:57,870 I thought that was hysterical. 138 00:09:04,794 --> 00:09:07,296 We're here in Pigalle, which is traditionally 139 00:09:07,380 --> 00:09:09,382 the cabaret district of Paris, 140 00:09:09,465 --> 00:09:13,553 and also the original red light district. 141 00:09:14,136 --> 00:09:15,972 I think that people don't know 142 00:09:16,055 --> 00:09:20,142 about the legacy of this neighborhood, 143 00:09:20,226 --> 00:09:22,728 And how the seeds 144 00:09:22,812 --> 00:09:27,316 of the modern trans community really was planted here. 145 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,652 In Paris in the '50s and '60s, 146 00:09:29,735 --> 00:09:32,738 the biggest cabaret act of that time 147 00:09:32,822 --> 00:09:35,950 -was a bunch of trans women. -Yes. 148 00:09:38,744 --> 00:09:40,621 In Madame Arthur, still here, 149 00:09:40,705 --> 00:09:42,665 -where it sort of all started. -Right. 150 00:09:45,293 --> 00:09:47,211 This is the original place 151 00:09:47,295 --> 00:09:50,381 where there was really a transvestite cabaret. 152 00:09:50,464 --> 00:09:52,675 And it was a very different type of place 153 00:09:52,758 --> 00:09:54,176 than The Carrousel because-- 154 00:09:54,260 --> 00:09:56,804 -A bit more low-rent. -Sort of. Yeah. 155 00:09:56,887 --> 00:09:58,222 It was-- 156 00:09:58,806 --> 00:10:00,725 I think it wasn't so much touristy. 157 00:10:00,808 --> 00:10:02,977 It was really for the local people. 158 00:10:03,060 --> 00:10:04,687 What's interesting is that 159 00:10:04,770 --> 00:10:07,857 when people started finding out about this place, 160 00:10:07,940 --> 00:10:10,818 girls all over the world started coming here 161 00:10:10,901 --> 00:10:13,321 because they realized that it was possible, 162 00:10:13,404 --> 00:10:16,657 living their day-to-day lives as women. 163 00:10:18,492 --> 00:10:22,246 It was really something people had never seen before. 164 00:11:34,402 --> 00:11:36,362 You-you dragged up and went to... 165 00:11:36,445 --> 00:11:38,155 to work in the nightclubs, didn't you? 166 00:11:38,239 --> 00:11:40,116 Well, I think they'd be very annoyed with you 167 00:11:40,199 --> 00:11:42,284 at The Carrousel, the greatest nightclub in France, 168 00:11:42,368 --> 00:11:43,828 if you say "dragged up." 169 00:11:43,911 --> 00:11:45,663 -But you did, effectively, do... -It was a great art. 170 00:11:45,746 --> 00:11:47,748 -...a drag act, as such. -Yes, yes. 171 00:11:47,832 --> 00:11:49,792 It was the most wonderful and most famous club 172 00:11:49,875 --> 00:11:52,420 in the whole world at that time in the 1950s. 173 00:11:52,503 --> 00:11:54,588 Did you feel any sense that was a little bit seedy, 174 00:11:54,672 --> 00:11:56,340 and you weren't really being true to yourself? 175 00:11:56,424 --> 00:11:57,925 There was certainly nothing seedy about it, 176 00:11:58,008 --> 00:11:59,385 and had you come, young man, 177 00:11:59,468 --> 00:12:01,262 had you been able to afford to come see us, 178 00:12:01,345 --> 00:12:03,514 you would've also discovered it wasn't seedy. 179 00:12:04,098 --> 00:12:06,600 No, it was the most expensive nightclub in France. 180 00:12:55,399 --> 00:12:58,068 People could not believe their eyes 181 00:12:58,152 --> 00:13:00,863 when they saw these acts come out, 182 00:13:00,946 --> 00:13:03,073 and they'd say, "That cannot be a man. 183 00:13:03,157 --> 00:13:04,366 That's impossible." 184 00:13:05,493 --> 00:13:08,579 And when you saw the breasts of Coccinelle, 185 00:13:08,662 --> 00:13:10,748 which were like two bazookas, 186 00:13:10,831 --> 00:13:12,500 I mean, extraordinary. 187 00:14:16,689 --> 00:14:18,649 My first years at The Carrousel 188 00:14:18,732 --> 00:14:22,111 were an extraordinary time of excitement and discovery. 189 00:14:23,863 --> 00:14:27,867 In 1958, a young painter from the south of France, 190 00:14:27,950 --> 00:14:29,869 by the name of Alain Tap, 191 00:14:29,952 --> 00:14:32,079 began performing at The Carrousel 192 00:14:32,162 --> 00:14:33,581 under the stage name 193 00:14:33,664 --> 00:14:35,499 Peki d'Oslo. 194 00:14:36,375 --> 00:14:38,419 Peki had been an art student, 195 00:14:38,502 --> 00:14:41,380 making his way by painting pristine little postcards 196 00:14:41,463 --> 00:14:43,340 for tourists on the street. 197 00:14:43,924 --> 00:14:46,302 His performance was less lovely, 198 00:14:46,343 --> 00:14:48,596 and I encouraged him to leave the stage 199 00:14:48,679 --> 00:14:50,055 and continue his art. 200 00:14:50,681 --> 00:14:54,351 But it was of no use. Peki adored the spotlight. 201 00:14:54,435 --> 00:14:56,937 So it came as no surprise when, years later, 202 00:14:57,021 --> 00:14:59,648 she went on to become the most famous of us all... 203 00:14:59,732 --> 00:15:02,902 the European disco queen, Amanda Lear. 204 00:15:20,961 --> 00:15:23,797 So when people look you up, Amanda, 205 00:15:23,881 --> 00:15:26,216 they see that you're connected to a Parisian club 206 00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:27,509 called The Carrousel. 207 00:15:28,135 --> 00:15:29,261 Yes, I've never been there. 208 00:15:29,345 --> 00:15:30,554 I've never been there in my life. 209 00:15:30,638 --> 00:15:32,264 I don't even-even exist. 210 00:15:33,015 --> 00:15:34,767 On the Internet, it says you're 211 00:15:34,850 --> 00:15:37,895 one of the most beautiful showgirls at The Carrousel. 212 00:15:38,979 --> 00:15:40,314 -Who was? -You. 213 00:15:40,397 --> 00:15:41,398 Me? 214 00:15:42,066 --> 00:15:43,317 I've never been there. 215 00:15:44,526 --> 00:15:46,528 But Salvador Dalí went there and... 216 00:15:46,612 --> 00:15:47,613 Yeah? 217 00:15:49,365 --> 00:15:52,493 No... I've never been there. No. 218 00:16:26,986 --> 00:16:30,239 Amanda was called Peki at that time. 219 00:16:30,322 --> 00:16:33,742 She had come to me and said, "I want to live with you. 220 00:16:33,826 --> 00:16:36,787 I-I want to be a lady like you," 221 00:16:37,371 --> 00:16:40,958 and I said, "Well, you can move into my hotel. 222 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:42,710 I'll pay the difference," 223 00:16:42,793 --> 00:16:44,253 'cause she didn't get as much money 224 00:16:44,336 --> 00:16:46,088 as I was being paid. 225 00:16:46,171 --> 00:16:48,215 And so we just carried on. 226 00:16:51,176 --> 00:16:53,512 I began to grow very fond of Peki. 227 00:16:55,305 --> 00:16:57,016 We had such fun together. 228 00:16:57,725 --> 00:16:58,767 She was sharp, 229 00:16:58,851 --> 00:17:00,728 with an exquisite sense of humor. 230 00:17:02,062 --> 00:17:03,647 She became a little sister to me, 231 00:17:03,731 --> 00:17:05,357 which was so meaningful in the absence 232 00:17:05,441 --> 00:17:06,608 of my own family. 233 00:17:07,734 --> 00:17:09,278 I continued to mentor her 234 00:17:09,361 --> 00:17:12,196 as she blossomed into an extraordinary beauty. 235 00:17:20,622 --> 00:17:23,791 Every movie star that visited Paris 236 00:17:23,876 --> 00:17:25,711 had to go to The Carrousel 237 00:17:25,794 --> 00:17:29,631 because it was the most "in" place in the whole of France. 238 00:17:31,300 --> 00:17:34,595 We made great friends with people like Josephine Baker, 239 00:17:34,678 --> 00:17:38,015 Elvis Presley, who sent me a bottle of champagne, 240 00:17:38,098 --> 00:17:40,851 Juliette Gréco, Édith Piaf. 241 00:17:40,934 --> 00:17:43,520 All of these extraordinary stars. 242 00:17:43,604 --> 00:17:46,899 And Dalí came to The Carrousel. 243 00:17:47,858 --> 00:17:52,780 Salvador Dalí had a thing about transvestites, transsexuals. 244 00:17:53,489 --> 00:17:57,034 And he took one look at me and said, "I must paint her." 245 00:17:57,117 --> 00:17:59,787 But of course, you know, I was very shy. 246 00:18:00,829 --> 00:18:02,873 When I introduced Peki to Dalí, 247 00:18:02,956 --> 00:18:05,334 I knew they would be a perfect pair. 248 00:18:05,876 --> 00:18:08,712 Amanda became one of his greatest muses, 249 00:18:08,796 --> 00:18:10,798 and he, her greatest teacher. 250 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,546 France is very liberal in theory, 251 00:18:50,629 --> 00:18:53,674 but the culture can be very conservative too, 252 00:18:53,757 --> 00:18:55,717 and people can be very conservative. 253 00:18:55,801 --> 00:18:57,094 The trans at that time 254 00:18:57,177 --> 00:19:00,764 had a very difficult trajectory. 255 00:19:00,848 --> 00:19:02,933 You know, it was still illegal for a long time. 256 00:20:40,447 --> 00:20:43,242 Everyone there at The Carrousel 257 00:20:43,367 --> 00:20:45,202 would have been incredibly aware 258 00:20:45,285 --> 00:20:47,454 of how close they live to the line, 259 00:20:47,537 --> 00:20:50,624 and how, with one false move, 260 00:20:50,707 --> 00:20:53,460 they could be walking the street, 261 00:20:53,543 --> 00:20:56,922 turning tricks for pennies. 262 00:21:25,242 --> 00:21:28,704 The goal for many early transsexuals 263 00:21:28,787 --> 00:21:33,292 in this period was to blend into society. 264 00:21:33,333 --> 00:21:35,168 But for the girls at The Carrousel, 265 00:21:35,252 --> 00:21:39,006 they were well-known, famous performers. 266 00:21:39,756 --> 00:21:43,176 The issue is, that closeness to fame 267 00:21:43,260 --> 00:21:47,556 was entirely based in the fact that they were trans. 268 00:21:50,434 --> 00:21:54,521 To go any further, you couldn't be trans. 269 00:21:55,397 --> 00:21:59,318 But if you could save up about a thousand francs, 270 00:21:59,401 --> 00:22:02,154 you could fly yourself to Casablanca 271 00:22:02,237 --> 00:22:03,780 to get a sex change. 272 00:22:05,657 --> 00:22:08,702 Then it was quite easy to pick up town, 273 00:22:08,785 --> 00:22:09,911 go somewhere else, 274 00:22:09,995 --> 00:22:12,205 and reinvent yourself as a new person. 275 00:22:12,789 --> 00:22:14,916 And then maybe 276 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,961 you had the possibility of having a job, 277 00:22:18,045 --> 00:22:19,921 or a husband, of... 278 00:22:20,839 --> 00:22:23,133 being able to move through the streets 279 00:22:23,216 --> 00:22:25,135 without fear of arrest. 280 00:22:25,218 --> 00:22:27,095 Because of course if the police arrested you, 281 00:22:27,179 --> 00:22:28,388 and stripped you, 282 00:22:28,472 --> 00:22:29,848 they'd have nothing to arrest you 283 00:22:29,931 --> 00:22:31,141 on suspicion of. 284 00:22:33,352 --> 00:22:36,188 I had promised myself by the time I was 25, 285 00:22:36,271 --> 00:22:37,939 if I couldn't have the operation, 286 00:22:38,023 --> 00:22:39,858 I didn't want to live anyhow. 287 00:22:41,526 --> 00:22:43,737 'Cause I didn't want to live in the half world 288 00:22:43,820 --> 00:22:44,988 that you're in. 289 00:22:46,615 --> 00:22:47,699 By this time, 290 00:22:47,783 --> 00:22:50,660 Christine Jorgensen had done it. 291 00:22:54,998 --> 00:22:57,250 And so that's when you knew 292 00:22:57,334 --> 00:22:59,586 that it was possible to do. 293 00:23:01,463 --> 00:23:03,090 So the moment I found out you could, 294 00:23:03,173 --> 00:23:04,800 I started saving every penny I had 295 00:23:04,883 --> 00:23:08,178 so I could go off to Casablanca 296 00:23:08,261 --> 00:23:11,264 to see Dr. Burou, who had done Coccinelle. 297 00:23:12,557 --> 00:23:14,309 Coccinelle was very naughty. 298 00:23:14,393 --> 00:23:16,103 She wouldn't give me the address, 299 00:23:17,270 --> 00:23:20,315 but Kiki Moustic, who was her best friend... 300 00:23:20,399 --> 00:23:22,192 We were touring in Italy. 301 00:23:22,275 --> 00:23:24,486 One evening, just as we were leaving, 302 00:23:24,569 --> 00:23:26,321 the show was over and we were all 303 00:23:26,405 --> 00:23:27,697 getting dressed and leaving, 304 00:23:27,781 --> 00:23:29,658 Kiki just came up to me and said, 305 00:23:29,741 --> 00:23:32,202 "I think, April, this is what you're looking for," 306 00:23:32,744 --> 00:23:34,788 and handed me a little slip of paper. 307 00:23:35,414 --> 00:23:37,541 And that was the address of Dr. Burou 308 00:23:37,624 --> 00:23:41,837 at the Clinique du Parc in Casablanca in Morocco. 309 00:23:45,006 --> 00:23:47,092 So I wrote immediately to Dr. Burou and he said, 310 00:23:47,175 --> 00:23:48,760 "Come whenever you want." 311 00:23:50,011 --> 00:23:51,179 So I did. 312 00:23:53,598 --> 00:23:55,475 Peki and some of The Carrousel troupe 313 00:23:55,559 --> 00:23:57,894 insisted on seeing me off at the airport. 314 00:23:58,895 --> 00:24:01,356 Going to Morocco for the surgery 315 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:02,983 was a terrible risk. 316 00:24:03,066 --> 00:24:04,609 Very few had done it. 317 00:24:05,318 --> 00:24:07,362 They were all worried that I might never return, 318 00:24:07,988 --> 00:24:09,573 and even tried to dissuade me. 319 00:24:11,283 --> 00:24:13,034 We parted in tears. 320 00:24:20,667 --> 00:24:22,544 And when Dr. Burou saw me, 321 00:24:23,253 --> 00:24:27,048 he said, "You're a boy?" Said, "That's amazing." 322 00:24:27,132 --> 00:24:30,635 And he said, "When would you like to be operated on?" 323 00:24:30,719 --> 00:24:32,262 I said, "As soon as possible." 324 00:24:32,345 --> 00:24:34,431 He said, "Move into the clinic tonight 325 00:24:34,514 --> 00:24:36,349 and we'll operate on you tomorrow." 326 00:24:36,433 --> 00:24:39,436 And that's how easily and quickly it went. 327 00:24:43,398 --> 00:24:46,568 The moment for me, really... 328 00:24:47,444 --> 00:24:50,071 was a day in 1960, 329 00:24:50,822 --> 00:24:53,116 on the 12th of May. 330 00:24:54,159 --> 00:24:56,411 Well, that was the day I became a woman. 331 00:24:57,370 --> 00:24:59,039 That's the day I was created. 332 00:24:59,748 --> 00:25:00,874 And that was, to me, 333 00:25:00,957 --> 00:25:02,918 was the most important day of my life. 334 00:25:05,504 --> 00:25:07,005 If you're going to impress somebody, 335 00:25:07,088 --> 00:25:10,050 impress them with your own self. 336 00:25:10,675 --> 00:25:14,554 Be truthful to yourself, and you will be magnificent. 337 00:25:16,389 --> 00:25:19,518 If you depended upon labels, you will be trash. 338 00:25:31,154 --> 00:25:33,907 You know, my mother was Oriental, 339 00:25:33,990 --> 00:25:36,326 as you see my cheekbones, you know, I'm... 340 00:25:36,409 --> 00:25:38,620 She was from over there. 341 00:25:39,746 --> 00:25:42,332 And they have there, a strange tendency, 342 00:25:42,415 --> 00:25:43,750 Oriental people, 343 00:25:43,833 --> 00:25:46,378 to accept their destiny. 344 00:25:47,837 --> 00:25:50,924 This attitude, I can't stand it. 345 00:25:51,007 --> 00:25:53,843 Why? Why do you have to accept your destiny if you-- 346 00:25:53,927 --> 00:25:56,346 if you can make it better, you know? 347 00:25:58,265 --> 00:26:01,268 So you are totally free to choose your destiny. 348 00:26:01,351 --> 00:26:02,477 That's what I realized. 349 00:26:03,353 --> 00:26:05,105 I wasn't sure if I wanted to be an actress 350 00:26:05,188 --> 00:26:06,398 or a singer or a dancer. 351 00:26:06,481 --> 00:26:08,483 I like dancing. I could have been a dancer. 352 00:26:08,567 --> 00:26:11,194 All I knew is that I wanted to be somebody, you know? 353 00:26:11,278 --> 00:26:13,321 My mother, she was a poor woman. 354 00:26:13,405 --> 00:26:16,241 She was not happy, her husband left her. 355 00:26:16,324 --> 00:26:18,410 I said, I don't want to be miserable like her. 356 00:26:18,493 --> 00:26:21,204 I want my life to be a success. 357 00:26:21,288 --> 00:26:23,081 I left my family when I was 16 358 00:26:23,164 --> 00:26:25,292 because I wanted to go to art school, 359 00:26:25,417 --> 00:26:26,793 and I never saw them again. 360 00:26:30,964 --> 00:26:34,342 I went to art school because I love painting. 361 00:26:34,426 --> 00:26:37,846 And you know, I lived in Paris, when I was skinny as hell. 362 00:26:37,929 --> 00:26:39,681 And one afternoon, 363 00:26:39,764 --> 00:26:41,766 I ran into a little woman who said, 364 00:26:41,850 --> 00:26:44,436 "Would you like to be a model?" I said, "Are you kidding? 365 00:26:44,519 --> 00:26:47,480 I'm not a model. I'm a student at art school." 366 00:26:47,564 --> 00:26:49,608 She said, "Yeah, but you are very tall 367 00:26:49,691 --> 00:26:51,776 and thin, and cheekbones. 368 00:26:51,860 --> 00:26:54,029 You could be a good model." I said, "No idea." 369 00:26:54,112 --> 00:26:56,281 I didn't know how to put makeup on, anything. 370 00:26:56,364 --> 00:26:58,283 In fact, I thought I was pretty ugly. 371 00:26:58,366 --> 00:27:00,994 I was full of complex. My hair was too straight. 372 00:27:01,036 --> 00:27:04,414 So anyway, that woman helped me to become a model. 373 00:27:05,582 --> 00:27:06,916 And suddenly, 374 00:27:07,584 --> 00:27:08,585 one day, 375 00:27:09,377 --> 00:27:10,879 I was pretty. 376 00:27:10,962 --> 00:27:13,757 I said, "God, I can't believe I was successful." 377 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,717 People were paying me good money 378 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,260 to pose for photographs. 379 00:27:17,344 --> 00:27:19,638 I couldn't believe it. You paying me 380 00:27:19,721 --> 00:27:22,015 to sit there and smile on a photograph? 381 00:27:22,098 --> 00:27:23,767 And I thought, "Wow, that's amazing." 382 00:27:23,850 --> 00:27:25,226 And that's how I started 383 00:27:25,310 --> 00:27:27,896 subtly getting into fashion, 384 00:27:27,979 --> 00:27:31,066 image, lights, photography. 385 00:27:31,149 --> 00:27:33,276 I thought, "Oh, that's exciting." 386 00:27:34,235 --> 00:27:36,279 Did you want to be famous? 387 00:27:38,406 --> 00:27:41,368 It's not being famous. 388 00:27:41,451 --> 00:27:43,411 It's being somebody... 389 00:27:44,829 --> 00:27:46,039 special. 390 00:27:46,122 --> 00:27:47,999 That is important, I think. 391 00:27:53,296 --> 00:27:56,299 I came back to England in 1960. 392 00:27:56,383 --> 00:27:59,094 You know, I didn't try to hide who I was. 393 00:28:00,053 --> 00:28:01,763 You know, if people said to me, 394 00:28:01,846 --> 00:28:04,432 "Don't I know you? Didn't I see you in Paris?" 395 00:28:04,516 --> 00:28:06,685 And I would say, "Yes, of course you did." 396 00:28:06,768 --> 00:28:08,645 So I wasn't trying to hide anything. 397 00:28:10,188 --> 00:28:12,732 Vogue chose me to be their favorite model 398 00:28:12,816 --> 00:28:14,401 for underwear 399 00:28:14,484 --> 00:28:15,985 because I was tall. 400 00:28:17,278 --> 00:28:19,364 They wanted you to be a little more voluptuous 401 00:28:19,447 --> 00:28:20,740 for showing underwear. 402 00:28:23,326 --> 00:28:26,788 But I made some wonderful, wonderful girlfriends 403 00:28:26,871 --> 00:28:29,958 and we used to have such fun afterwards. 404 00:28:30,041 --> 00:28:32,085 And they could never get over that I could drink 405 00:28:32,168 --> 00:28:34,546 until four o'clock in the morning and turn up 406 00:28:34,629 --> 00:28:36,464 and get up at six and be there, 407 00:28:36,548 --> 00:28:39,342 looking divine and, you know, ready to work again. 408 00:28:39,426 --> 00:28:41,720 So it was a quite-- quite extraordinary period. 409 00:28:41,803 --> 00:28:43,012 It was lovely. 410 00:28:43,096 --> 00:28:44,931 I enjoyed every moment of it. 411 00:28:52,147 --> 00:28:55,650 I think basically, deep down, I knew 412 00:28:55,734 --> 00:28:59,320 I didn't have long to go before something would happen. 413 00:29:00,613 --> 00:29:03,742 And sure enough, suddenly, one Sunday afternoon, 414 00:29:03,825 --> 00:29:05,368 I'm at home, 415 00:29:06,244 --> 00:29:08,204 and there's banging on my door, 416 00:29:09,539 --> 00:29:12,375 and there's all this press outside the door, 417 00:29:13,501 --> 00:29:17,046 saying, "We know who you are and you've got to let us in." 418 00:29:17,130 --> 00:29:19,716 And I said, "No, you're not coming into this flat." 419 00:29:21,217 --> 00:29:23,219 I said, "If you don't go away, I'll call the police." 420 00:29:25,972 --> 00:29:29,517 And of course, the moment it came out, 421 00:29:29,601 --> 00:29:31,436 I went to my agent. 422 00:29:31,519 --> 00:29:34,272 Signon just said to me, "Well, April, you know, darling, 423 00:29:34,355 --> 00:29:37,025 you will never get another job in this country. 424 00:29:38,693 --> 00:29:42,113 Every job you've had has been canceled." 425 00:29:43,364 --> 00:29:46,159 They did not want a transsexual associated 426 00:29:46,242 --> 00:29:47,535 with their products. 427 00:29:48,620 --> 00:29:51,706 It was extraordinary to be cut off like that, 428 00:29:51,790 --> 00:29:54,083 to have every single job, 429 00:29:54,167 --> 00:29:56,503 where you are booked for six months in advance, 430 00:29:56,586 --> 00:29:58,546 canceled overnight... 431 00:29:59,964 --> 00:30:02,509 never to be offered another one to this day. 432 00:30:15,396 --> 00:30:17,190 That's a rather striking miniskirt. 433 00:30:17,273 --> 00:30:18,608 Aren't you feeling a bit cold? 434 00:30:18,691 --> 00:30:20,109 No, it's not a question of cold. 435 00:30:20,193 --> 00:30:22,111 I don't feel the cold, really, 436 00:30:22,195 --> 00:30:23,822 'cause I wear stockings and boots. 437 00:30:25,824 --> 00:30:28,660 I was modeling. Um... I lived in London. 438 00:30:29,994 --> 00:30:32,497 Unfortunately, it was not like the models of today. 439 00:30:32,580 --> 00:30:34,749 I mean, today, they are paid millions of dollars. 440 00:30:35,625 --> 00:30:36,626 We didn't have much money. 441 00:30:37,335 --> 00:30:38,753 But anyway, I stayed there, 442 00:30:39,337 --> 00:30:41,381 and I really was part of what is called, 443 00:30:41,464 --> 00:30:43,424 I don't know, the London scene. 444 00:30:44,175 --> 00:30:46,302 That's where it was happening. Not in the South of France, 445 00:30:46,386 --> 00:30:47,387 where my mother lived. 446 00:30:48,763 --> 00:30:51,015 There was the King's Road, there was this movement, 447 00:30:51,099 --> 00:30:52,392 there's this revolution. 448 00:30:52,976 --> 00:30:55,103 The Beatles, The Rolling Stones. 449 00:30:55,186 --> 00:30:57,397 It was so exciting to live in London. 450 00:30:58,940 --> 00:31:01,651 London was fully swinging by the '60s 451 00:31:01,734 --> 00:31:04,487 when Peki popped up after having what she called 452 00:31:04,571 --> 00:31:06,489 in our Carrousel days 453 00:31:06,573 --> 00:31:08,283 "Operation Pussycat." 454 00:31:09,367 --> 00:31:10,535 She was tight-lipped 455 00:31:10,618 --> 00:31:12,287 when it came to discussing the details, 456 00:31:12,370 --> 00:31:15,331 as she was eager to start life anew. 457 00:31:19,669 --> 00:31:21,379 Peki's new life was not off 458 00:31:21,421 --> 00:31:23,256 to the most dignified start. 459 00:31:24,048 --> 00:31:26,759 While she had been enjoying the male attention she received 460 00:31:26,843 --> 00:31:28,928 performing a whips and leather act 461 00:31:29,012 --> 00:31:30,471 at Raymond Revuebar, 462 00:31:30,555 --> 00:31:32,390 I knew such a profession would not endear her 463 00:31:32,473 --> 00:31:34,017 to the passport office. 464 00:31:35,768 --> 00:31:38,479 She changed her name to Amanda 465 00:31:38,563 --> 00:31:40,982 and we set out to obtain her British passport 466 00:31:41,065 --> 00:31:42,859 in the easiest way I knew how. 467 00:31:43,484 --> 00:31:44,485 Marriage. 468 00:31:47,572 --> 00:31:49,616 Upon entering a pub in Notting Hill, 469 00:31:49,699 --> 00:31:52,619 we spotted an unremarkable individual sitting at the bar, 470 00:31:52,702 --> 00:31:55,455 whom we would come to know as Mr. Lear. 471 00:31:56,497 --> 00:31:59,292 I offered him 50 quid to marry Amanda, 472 00:31:59,375 --> 00:32:00,960 and the next Saturday, we were off 473 00:32:01,044 --> 00:32:03,713 to Chelsea Old Town Hall to perform the nuptials. 474 00:32:13,806 --> 00:32:16,309 So you met him at a pub and, um... 475 00:32:16,392 --> 00:32:18,394 -Yeah. -What was his name? 476 00:32:21,731 --> 00:32:23,608 Paul, I think. No? 477 00:32:23,691 --> 00:32:26,027 I'm not sure. I think it's Paul, yeah. 478 00:32:27,028 --> 00:32:28,655 Darling, we're talking about... 479 00:32:28,738 --> 00:32:30,615 60 years ago or something. 480 00:32:31,199 --> 00:32:32,659 It's a long time ago. 481 00:32:33,868 --> 00:32:36,829 -So you took his last name? -Yes. 482 00:32:36,913 --> 00:32:38,539 What was your name before? 483 00:32:41,125 --> 00:32:42,168 Forgot. 484 00:32:43,127 --> 00:32:45,588 -There was no before? -No. Forgot. 485 00:32:46,339 --> 00:32:48,675 What were your parents' last name? 486 00:32:48,758 --> 00:32:50,677 -My parents' what? -Last name. 487 00:32:51,260 --> 00:32:52,720 Surname. 488 00:32:52,804 --> 00:32:54,597 Their last name was the same name I had. 489 00:32:57,517 --> 00:32:58,559 Clever. 490 00:33:03,106 --> 00:33:05,316 As the newly minted Amanda Lear, 491 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,319 she became shrewd, an adept social climber 492 00:33:08,403 --> 00:33:10,613 who was brilliant at drumming up publicity. 493 00:33:13,282 --> 00:33:16,869 Eventually, her ambition began to eclipse all else, 494 00:33:16,953 --> 00:33:20,957 and I only heard from her when she was feeling lost, 495 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,584 reaching out for an anchoring presence. 496 00:33:25,586 --> 00:33:28,339 Anita Pallenberg was my friend. She was modeling with me. 497 00:33:28,923 --> 00:33:31,426 We had the same model agency. We all knew each other. 498 00:33:31,509 --> 00:33:33,261 It was the same circle. The Rolling Stones, 499 00:33:33,344 --> 00:33:35,388 Anita Pallenberg, Keith Richards, 500 00:33:35,471 --> 00:33:37,181 Brian Jones. 501 00:33:37,265 --> 00:33:38,516 We were all friends. 502 00:33:38,599 --> 00:33:40,893 And Brian Jones, because he was taking 503 00:33:40,977 --> 00:33:43,229 a lot of sleeping tablets at night, 504 00:33:43,312 --> 00:33:46,024 in the daytime, he was taking what we call "speed," 505 00:33:46,107 --> 00:33:47,400 you know, amphetamines. 506 00:33:47,483 --> 00:33:49,610 And he gave me this-- 507 00:33:49,694 --> 00:33:51,612 his pills, to keep in my handbag. 508 00:33:53,823 --> 00:33:55,658 And when we were in that little shop 509 00:33:55,742 --> 00:33:57,744 in the King's Road in London, 510 00:33:57,827 --> 00:34:00,496 the shop was raided by the police. 511 00:34:05,460 --> 00:34:08,420 And of course, they found those pills on me. 512 00:34:08,504 --> 00:34:10,339 And Brian Jones told me, 513 00:34:10,422 --> 00:34:12,341 "Say it's yours. Say it's yours." 514 00:34:12,425 --> 00:34:14,217 So I say, "All right. They are mine." 515 00:34:14,302 --> 00:34:16,219 So, I was-- I was searched, 516 00:34:16,304 --> 00:34:18,014 I was taken to the police station. 517 00:34:18,097 --> 00:34:19,974 I was charged with the possession 518 00:34:20,058 --> 00:34:21,516 of, uh, dangerous drugs. 519 00:34:21,601 --> 00:34:23,478 I mean, it was a... big nightmare. 520 00:34:23,561 --> 00:34:25,646 I said, "My God, what am I getting into?" 521 00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:30,150 So Brian Jones said, 522 00:34:30,234 --> 00:34:32,360 "Don't worry, I'll get you a good lawyer." 523 00:34:32,445 --> 00:34:35,739 And he took me to court in his Rolls-Royce. 524 00:34:40,828 --> 00:34:42,996 But anyway, no charge in the end 525 00:34:43,081 --> 00:34:46,458 because the doctor said that this was on prescription 526 00:34:46,542 --> 00:34:47,960 for losing weight. 527 00:34:49,712 --> 00:34:52,632 But it was a difficult moment, I must say. 528 00:34:52,715 --> 00:34:54,342 All this drug situation. 529 00:34:57,929 --> 00:34:59,388 Yeah, that's me going to court. 530 00:35:00,389 --> 00:35:02,600 That's the lawyer and the driver. 531 00:35:03,309 --> 00:35:04,602 Nice miniskirt. 532 00:35:05,228 --> 00:35:07,688 I've got skinny legs. My God, so skinny. 533 00:35:07,772 --> 00:35:09,023 Here we are going to... 534 00:35:10,399 --> 00:35:11,818 Marlborough Court. 535 00:35:13,486 --> 00:35:15,404 In Amanda's version of events, 536 00:35:15,488 --> 00:35:17,740 Brian Jones bailed her out. 537 00:35:18,658 --> 00:35:21,077 The truth is, it was me who paid her bail, 538 00:35:21,661 --> 00:35:24,580 accompanied her to court, and testified on her behalf. 539 00:35:31,671 --> 00:35:34,215 It's a curious thing, being removed 540 00:35:34,298 --> 00:35:35,800 from someone's story. 541 00:35:38,427 --> 00:35:40,805 How did you create Peki d'Oslo? 542 00:35:40,888 --> 00:35:42,807 -How did I create? -Peki. 543 00:35:43,766 --> 00:35:46,185 -Who's Peki? -Peki d'Oslo. 544 00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:48,271 Who's that? 545 00:35:50,523 --> 00:35:51,691 Amanda. 546 00:35:51,774 --> 00:35:54,277 Oh, Peki. I see, I couldn't understand. 547 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,445 Oh, yeah. That one. Well, that's not me. 548 00:35:56,529 --> 00:35:58,823 She does look like me sometimes, but that's not me at all. 549 00:35:58,906 --> 00:36:00,032 That's really not me. 550 00:36:00,116 --> 00:36:02,743 That's a total, total misunderstanding from the start. 551 00:36:02,827 --> 00:36:04,704 The arrest photo of you, though, says Peki d'Oslo-- 552 00:36:04,787 --> 00:36:06,622 And it is true that people keep saying, 553 00:36:06,706 --> 00:36:08,124 "That's you. Come on, that's you." 554 00:36:08,207 --> 00:36:09,500 I say, "No, that's not me." 555 00:36:09,584 --> 00:36:11,502 Look, that's not me. It's not the same person. 556 00:36:11,586 --> 00:36:13,212 The dates, they don't coincide. 557 00:36:13,296 --> 00:36:16,299 She should be about 95 by now. That's not me. 558 00:36:17,175 --> 00:36:19,802 But I mean, I don't care, okay? Think what you think. 559 00:36:19,886 --> 00:36:21,929 Think what you want. I-I don't give a shit. 560 00:36:22,013 --> 00:36:23,723 It doesn't change my life at all. 561 00:36:24,682 --> 00:36:26,392 Can we look at these photos? 562 00:36:33,357 --> 00:36:34,358 That's not me. 563 00:36:35,484 --> 00:36:36,986 -That one you mean? -No? 564 00:36:37,069 --> 00:36:39,572 That's not me. No, no, that's not me, baby. 565 00:36:39,655 --> 00:36:41,032 That's not me. 566 00:36:41,115 --> 00:36:43,993 That's not me. That's not me. That's not me. 567 00:36:45,286 --> 00:36:46,704 That me. 568 00:36:46,787 --> 00:36:49,332 With Salvador Dalí going out at Maxim's. 569 00:36:49,957 --> 00:36:52,001 That's not me. Oh, that's not me. 570 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:54,462 That's not me. 571 00:36:54,545 --> 00:36:56,297 Amanda, looks just like you. 572 00:36:56,380 --> 00:36:58,174 That's not me. That's not me. That's-- 573 00:36:58,257 --> 00:37:00,635 Oh, this one. Definitely not me. 574 00:37:01,928 --> 00:37:04,055 So you are not Peki? 575 00:37:04,972 --> 00:37:05,973 No, darling. 576 00:37:07,767 --> 00:37:08,809 I'm Amanda. 577 00:37:58,192 --> 00:37:59,277 Only what people? 578 00:38:01,028 --> 00:38:02,571 Only stupid people tell the truth. 579 00:38:04,824 --> 00:38:05,950 Never tell the truth? 580 00:38:08,035 --> 00:38:11,747 My life changed because I met Salvador Dalí. 581 00:38:14,583 --> 00:38:16,377 One evening, I was modeling in Paris. 582 00:38:16,460 --> 00:38:17,795 It was Fashion Week. 583 00:38:17,878 --> 00:38:20,339 I was modeling for a crazy stylist 584 00:38:20,423 --> 00:38:22,300 called, uh, Paco Rabanne. 585 00:38:31,434 --> 00:38:33,519 Paco Rabanne used only metal. 586 00:38:33,602 --> 00:38:35,438 He was doing dresses completely made of metal. 587 00:38:35,521 --> 00:38:38,149 They were heavy. They were really like 30 kilos. 588 00:38:38,232 --> 00:38:39,650 You have to carry the dress. 589 00:38:39,734 --> 00:38:41,861 And we went to a restaurant after the show, 590 00:38:41,944 --> 00:38:44,947 and there was Salvador Dalí, the big painter. 591 00:38:45,031 --> 00:38:46,699 He was sitting there. He was surrounded 592 00:38:46,782 --> 00:38:49,285 by a sort of court of people. 593 00:38:49,368 --> 00:38:52,121 "Oh, you are the great maestro. You are so wonderful." 594 00:38:52,204 --> 00:38:53,873 It was disgusting to watch. 595 00:38:53,956 --> 00:38:58,294 So... Paco Rabanne introduced me to Salvador Dalí and said, 596 00:38:58,377 --> 00:39:01,505 "Oh, I want you to meet Amanda. She's my favorite model." 597 00:39:01,589 --> 00:39:03,716 And Salvador Dalí looked at me 598 00:39:03,799 --> 00:39:06,802 and he looked at my cheekbone. I was very thin, of course, 599 00:39:06,886 --> 00:39:08,387 and he said, "Wow, 600 00:39:08,471 --> 00:39:11,640 you have the most beautiful skull I've ever seen." 601 00:39:12,391 --> 00:39:15,895 Skull? Me, skull? I was shocked. 602 00:39:15,978 --> 00:39:19,023 My God, that man is insulting me. 603 00:39:19,106 --> 00:39:21,067 So I said, "I'm not just a model. 604 00:39:21,150 --> 00:39:22,985 Actually, I'm a painter like you." 605 00:39:23,069 --> 00:39:26,030 And he said to me, "If you want to remain my friend, 606 00:39:26,113 --> 00:39:28,699 don't ever show me your paintings." 607 00:39:28,783 --> 00:39:30,284 Now that was a bad start. 608 00:39:30,368 --> 00:39:32,411 So I said, "I'm never gonna see that man again." 609 00:39:33,287 --> 00:39:35,373 That's it. And the next day, 610 00:39:36,082 --> 00:39:37,583 he phoned me 611 00:39:37,666 --> 00:39:39,668 and he said, "Would you like to have lunch with me?" 612 00:39:39,752 --> 00:39:41,962 And I said, "Well, all right, I'll come for lunch." 613 00:39:42,046 --> 00:39:44,548 And suddenly he was alone. He didn't have around him 614 00:39:44,632 --> 00:39:47,301 all this court of photographers and models, 615 00:39:47,385 --> 00:39:48,427 and he was all by himself, 616 00:39:48,511 --> 00:39:50,429 and he was charming. 617 00:39:50,513 --> 00:39:54,433 He was adorable. He was funny. He was incredible. 618 00:39:54,517 --> 00:39:56,560 So I fell in love, obviously, because no one... 619 00:39:57,353 --> 00:40:01,315 no one has been so kind to me like he was before, 620 00:40:01,399 --> 00:40:03,359 and he was so intelligent and everything. 621 00:40:04,777 --> 00:40:07,154 Salvador Dalí was a superstar, right? 622 00:40:07,238 --> 00:40:08,823 The whole world knew him, 623 00:40:08,906 --> 00:40:13,702 and he behaved like an enormous pop star. 624 00:40:15,329 --> 00:40:17,164 So I was watching him, 625 00:40:17,248 --> 00:40:19,166 and in fact, it was like going to school, 626 00:40:19,250 --> 00:40:20,584 how to become famous. 627 00:40:20,668 --> 00:40:22,420 You watched how he behaved. 628 00:40:22,503 --> 00:40:24,046 The minute there was a cameraman, 629 00:40:24,130 --> 00:40:26,549 a photographer, a journalist, that's it. 630 00:40:26,632 --> 00:40:29,301 He was putting on an act. He was being Dalí. 631 00:40:29,385 --> 00:40:32,555 He was doing what people expected him to be. 632 00:40:33,556 --> 00:40:35,057 So it was all an act. 633 00:40:35,766 --> 00:40:37,393 Celebrity is an act. 634 00:40:37,476 --> 00:40:39,895 You give people what they expect. 635 00:40:39,979 --> 00:40:41,730 And I was learning from him very much. 636 00:40:43,816 --> 00:40:46,110 He loved to surround himself with people 637 00:40:46,193 --> 00:40:50,364 who were eccentric or odd or a little... 638 00:40:50,448 --> 00:40:52,158 visually striking. 639 00:40:52,241 --> 00:40:56,537 Or, in Amanda Lear's case, people who were striking 640 00:40:56,620 --> 00:41:01,000 because of the meaning of them. 641 00:41:01,834 --> 00:41:05,212 Having himself surrounded by transsexuals 642 00:41:05,296 --> 00:41:07,047 and transvestites 643 00:41:07,131 --> 00:41:10,426 made him an outsider, glamorous figure. 644 00:41:10,509 --> 00:41:13,888 And he wanted that. He wanted that energy. 645 00:41:13,971 --> 00:41:16,849 That's why he hung out in New York with Candy Darling 646 00:41:16,932 --> 00:41:19,435 and in London with Amanda Lear. 647 00:41:29,403 --> 00:41:31,280 He went wild when, uh... 648 00:41:31,363 --> 00:41:33,991 hippie time arrived, because the hippies, for him, 649 00:41:34,074 --> 00:41:36,410 were the epitome of what he likes-- 650 00:41:36,494 --> 00:41:38,662 long hair, flowing robes, 651 00:41:38,746 --> 00:41:40,289 boy-girls, 652 00:41:40,372 --> 00:41:42,958 very difficult to tell who was who. 653 00:41:43,042 --> 00:41:44,001 He liked all that. 654 00:41:44,084 --> 00:41:47,129 Did you have a romantic relationship with him? 655 00:41:47,213 --> 00:41:48,255 It was passion. 656 00:41:48,339 --> 00:41:50,299 He was passionately in love with me. 657 00:41:50,382 --> 00:41:51,383 But it wasn't... 658 00:41:52,092 --> 00:41:53,552 It wasn't an affair. 659 00:41:54,136 --> 00:41:57,306 Like, people might think it includes sex. 660 00:41:57,389 --> 00:42:00,267 It's nothing like that. It was very artistic love. 661 00:42:00,351 --> 00:42:02,603 Very sublimate in his art, you know. 662 00:42:02,686 --> 00:42:05,356 He was looking at me differently, holding my hand. 663 00:42:05,439 --> 00:42:06,732 Sometimes I look at him and say, 664 00:42:06,815 --> 00:42:08,275 he's not just my lover. 665 00:42:08,359 --> 00:42:11,654 He's a sort of brother. He's a bit of... 666 00:42:11,737 --> 00:42:14,657 a guru, perhaps, a teacher. 667 00:42:14,740 --> 00:42:17,034 He's a bit-- a bit of everything, you see. 668 00:42:28,671 --> 00:42:30,923 I met the Honorable Arthur Corbett, 669 00:42:31,006 --> 00:42:32,633 who was the heir to Lord Rowallan, 670 00:42:33,467 --> 00:42:35,594 and he fell in love with me. 671 00:42:36,971 --> 00:42:38,556 A few months later, it coincided 672 00:42:38,639 --> 00:42:41,058 with me being outed, so to speak. 673 00:42:41,684 --> 00:42:46,146 And he had left his wife and children, 674 00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:48,816 and decided to open a nightclub in Spain. 675 00:42:48,899 --> 00:42:52,111 So he said to me, "Well, come and work with me in Spain." 676 00:42:52,987 --> 00:42:54,905 I knew I couldn't work in England. 677 00:42:55,573 --> 00:42:58,409 So I went with Arthur to Spain. 678 00:42:59,952 --> 00:43:02,830 You see, when I first knew him, I liked him very much. 679 00:43:02,913 --> 00:43:03,914 We had such fun. 680 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:07,459 I always told him I never loved him, 681 00:43:07,543 --> 00:43:08,919 but he wouldn't have it. He said, 682 00:43:09,003 --> 00:43:10,838 "I love you enough for both of us." 683 00:43:11,714 --> 00:43:15,009 We ended up in Gibraltar, getting married. 684 00:43:15,092 --> 00:43:18,470 I said to him, "Is it legal that we can get married?" 685 00:43:18,554 --> 00:43:20,431 Because I wasn't sure, you see. 686 00:43:21,473 --> 00:43:23,142 And the solicitor said, 687 00:43:23,225 --> 00:43:26,312 "Well, as long as Miss Ashley's got a female passport." 688 00:43:26,395 --> 00:43:28,355 And so Arthur arranged the whole thing. 689 00:43:28,439 --> 00:43:30,441 I didn't, I had nothing to do with it. 690 00:43:30,524 --> 00:43:31,900 I just turned up. 691 00:43:32,568 --> 00:43:36,030 And the marriage, it was incredibly difficult. 692 00:43:36,113 --> 00:43:38,198 Arthur was so mad 693 00:43:38,282 --> 00:43:40,075 and totally insane. 694 00:43:40,868 --> 00:43:43,787 He was a transvestite, which I didn't know about. 695 00:43:44,747 --> 00:43:47,374 And the more we got to know one another, 696 00:43:47,458 --> 00:43:49,460 the more she appeared. 697 00:43:49,543 --> 00:43:51,587 When he was a man, 698 00:43:51,629 --> 00:43:56,175 he was very jealous of anyone who made passes at me. 699 00:43:56,925 --> 00:43:58,636 And a lot of people did, of course. 700 00:43:59,511 --> 00:44:01,347 But when she appeared, 701 00:44:01,430 --> 00:44:03,641 she was madly jealous of me 702 00:44:04,933 --> 00:44:06,935 and it was a nightmare. 703 00:44:08,562 --> 00:44:11,982 I said, "You've always known that I don't love you, 704 00:44:12,066 --> 00:44:13,817 but I've come to the point where I don't think 705 00:44:13,901 --> 00:44:15,486 I even like you anymore." 706 00:44:16,153 --> 00:44:18,697 I left him after 14 days. 707 00:44:19,573 --> 00:44:20,783 I couldn't take any more. 708 00:44:24,536 --> 00:44:26,455 And so that's what happened, 709 00:44:27,039 --> 00:44:29,458 until we reached the divorce case, 710 00:44:30,084 --> 00:44:31,960 which was seven years later. 711 00:44:34,922 --> 00:44:37,424 By this time, I had gone to live in England, 712 00:44:37,508 --> 00:44:39,677 and I was fed up with the fact that 713 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:43,222 Arthur was still living in my house in Spain 714 00:44:43,305 --> 00:44:44,598 and he wouldn't pay rent. 715 00:44:45,391 --> 00:44:47,685 So I went to my solicitor and I said, 716 00:44:48,477 --> 00:44:50,312 "You know, he gave me this house," 717 00:44:50,396 --> 00:44:52,940 but I had spent thousands of pounds furnishing it. 718 00:44:53,816 --> 00:44:57,111 And then Arthur countersued, 719 00:44:57,653 --> 00:44:59,738 and that's when the divorce started, 720 00:45:00,823 --> 00:45:02,116 in 1968. 721 00:45:06,370 --> 00:45:08,163 The second day we were in court, 722 00:45:08,247 --> 00:45:11,750 I said to my team, I said, "We've lost this case. 723 00:45:11,834 --> 00:45:14,336 The judge will not even look at me. 724 00:45:14,420 --> 00:45:16,922 Even when he's directing a question to me, 725 00:45:17,005 --> 00:45:18,632 he will not look at me." 726 00:45:19,591 --> 00:45:22,177 They decided that I had to be... 727 00:45:22,803 --> 00:45:24,638 examined from head to toe. 728 00:45:27,599 --> 00:45:30,269 So all of Arthur's side 729 00:45:31,019 --> 00:45:32,980 had to come to the hospital with me. 730 00:45:33,814 --> 00:45:36,191 They X-rayed all my bones. 731 00:45:36,275 --> 00:45:38,485 They X-rayed my brain. 732 00:45:38,569 --> 00:45:40,237 And of course, the most important one 733 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,782 was what's called the three finger exercise, 734 00:45:43,866 --> 00:45:45,784 which is to go into your vagina 735 00:45:45,868 --> 00:45:49,121 to see if you can receive a man or not. 736 00:45:51,206 --> 00:45:53,834 They did a measurement of your hips 737 00:45:53,917 --> 00:45:55,586 and your shoulders. 738 00:45:55,669 --> 00:45:57,671 And if you're the perfect woman, 739 00:45:57,755 --> 00:46:01,258 your hips and your shoulders are the same width. 740 00:46:02,009 --> 00:46:03,969 Mine were both 36, 741 00:46:04,052 --> 00:46:07,765 but what they didn't say was that my waist was 17 inches. 742 00:46:08,348 --> 00:46:10,392 You know, that's Scarlett O'Hara. 743 00:46:11,351 --> 00:46:14,438 So you can imagine my fury when 744 00:46:14,521 --> 00:46:17,900 they just said, "Well, she's got 36 shoulders, 36 hips." 745 00:46:18,734 --> 00:46:23,030 So there were all kinds of nauseating little things. 746 00:46:23,113 --> 00:46:25,240 And every day I arrived in the court, 747 00:46:25,324 --> 00:46:28,911 the press were there, so it was incredibly difficult. 748 00:46:28,994 --> 00:46:30,746 Arthur Corbett knew exactly what he was doing 749 00:46:30,829 --> 00:46:31,955 when he married me. 750 00:46:32,039 --> 00:46:34,041 There was no... no deception. 751 00:46:35,250 --> 00:46:38,670 So it was a total fabrication on his part 752 00:46:38,754 --> 00:46:41,298 that he didn't know what he was doing 753 00:46:41,381 --> 00:46:42,800 when he got married to me. 754 00:46:43,967 --> 00:46:46,053 The marriage of April Ashley, 755 00:46:46,136 --> 00:46:48,013 formerly merchant seaman George Jamieson, 756 00:46:48,096 --> 00:46:50,724 was declared void in the divorce court today. 757 00:46:50,808 --> 00:46:53,685 The judge granted a decree to her husband, Arthur Corbett, 758 00:46:53,769 --> 00:46:55,437 who is the heir to Lord Rowallan. 759 00:46:55,979 --> 00:46:58,482 He ruled that Miss Ashley was biologically male, 760 00:46:58,565 --> 00:46:59,983 and said this was the first time 761 00:47:00,067 --> 00:47:01,652 an English judge had ever been called upon 762 00:47:01,735 --> 00:47:03,862 to decide an individual's sex. 763 00:47:03,946 --> 00:47:06,824 Miss Ashley called the verdict a load of waffle 764 00:47:06,907 --> 00:47:08,617 and said she intends to appeal. 765 00:47:11,787 --> 00:47:15,499 This could have been just one loss 766 00:47:15,582 --> 00:47:18,919 for one trans woman, but oh, no. 767 00:47:18,961 --> 00:47:22,840 In the UK, this resulted in all trans people 768 00:47:22,923 --> 00:47:25,425 losing the right to change our legal gender, 769 00:47:25,509 --> 00:47:28,887 and thus losing any marriage rights 770 00:47:29,972 --> 00:47:32,349 for four decades. 771 00:47:33,392 --> 00:47:36,979 Gay marriage was not legal in the UK 772 00:47:37,062 --> 00:47:38,814 during any of this period, 773 00:47:38,897 --> 00:47:41,400 which meant that no trans person 774 00:47:41,483 --> 00:47:43,318 could marry anyone of any gender 775 00:47:43,402 --> 00:47:46,154 because it would be considered a gay marriage. 776 00:47:47,781 --> 00:47:50,784 Yet another tragic thing is, though, 777 00:47:50,868 --> 00:47:52,536 that she should have won the case 778 00:47:52,619 --> 00:47:55,163 because there was a legal precedent. 779 00:47:55,247 --> 00:47:56,915 She and her lawyer found out 780 00:47:56,999 --> 00:47:58,709 the night before the verdict was read 781 00:47:58,792 --> 00:48:02,087 that several years before, there had been another case 782 00:48:02,170 --> 00:48:04,256 of a trans man from the aristocracy, 783 00:48:04,339 --> 00:48:05,549 Sir Ewan Forbes, 784 00:48:05,632 --> 00:48:08,176 who had legally changed his birth certificate. 785 00:48:08,802 --> 00:48:12,431 And that information not only came too late, 786 00:48:12,514 --> 00:48:16,059 it was sealed because he was a member of the aristocracy, 787 00:48:16,143 --> 00:48:17,978 so they couldn't use it in court. 788 00:48:18,061 --> 00:48:20,606 Thus she lost her case, 789 00:48:20,689 --> 00:48:23,692 and lost all trans people our rights to transition... 790 00:48:23,775 --> 00:48:24,902 legally. 791 00:48:26,194 --> 00:48:28,697 Everything was crumbling around me. 792 00:48:29,364 --> 00:48:31,783 I was tormented by the court's decision 793 00:48:32,492 --> 00:48:36,204 and by the public scrutiny brought on by the tabloids. 794 00:48:37,581 --> 00:48:39,833 I once again felt the hopeless pain 795 00:48:39,917 --> 00:48:41,293 of wanting to give up. 796 00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,047 I was a ship tossing about at sea 797 00:48:45,130 --> 00:48:46,548 with nothing to anchor me. 798 00:48:47,466 --> 00:48:48,550 There was no escape, 799 00:48:49,551 --> 00:48:51,094 no family to return to, 800 00:48:51,929 --> 00:48:53,472 and no release valve. 801 00:48:54,723 --> 00:48:55,849 I was alone. 802 00:49:41,311 --> 00:49:43,605 Bryan Ferry of Roxy Music 803 00:49:43,689 --> 00:49:45,399 saw me modeling and he said, 804 00:49:45,482 --> 00:49:49,069 "I want this girl for our next record cover." 805 00:49:49,152 --> 00:49:51,446 So he said, "I want you to be a Hitchcock girl." 806 00:49:52,114 --> 00:49:53,740 Very mysterious, 807 00:49:53,824 --> 00:49:56,660 all clad in black leather with very high heels, 808 00:49:56,743 --> 00:50:00,163 and he wanted me to hold a-a black panther on a leash. 809 00:50:01,123 --> 00:50:04,501 And it's because of this famous Roxy Music cover 810 00:50:04,584 --> 00:50:07,337 that David Bowie finally discovered me. 811 00:50:08,213 --> 00:50:10,590 He saw the photograph, and he said, 812 00:50:10,674 --> 00:50:12,676 "Oh, I like that girl. I'd like to meet her." 813 00:50:12,759 --> 00:50:14,511 Who are you? 814 00:50:14,594 --> 00:50:16,763 Better yet, explain yourself. 815 00:50:16,847 --> 00:50:20,350 I can't explain myself because I'm not myself, you see. 816 00:50:20,434 --> 00:50:22,728 Anyway, explanation takes such a dreadful time. 817 00:50:22,811 --> 00:50:25,147 -Would it be better, maybe? -Okay. 818 00:50:25,230 --> 00:50:27,232 What do you mean, "Okay"? I'm finished. 819 00:50:31,486 --> 00:50:33,947 -Very good. -I can't explain myself, 820 00:50:34,031 --> 00:50:35,949 you see, because I'm not myself. 821 00:50:37,826 --> 00:50:40,328 It doesn't mean much today, I suppose. 822 00:50:40,412 --> 00:50:42,497 -You don't think so? -Well, I don't know. 823 00:50:42,581 --> 00:50:43,832 Lots of people didn't understand. 824 00:50:43,915 --> 00:50:45,459 Well, it's because it was David Bowie. 825 00:50:45,542 --> 00:50:47,335 You know, it had to be weird. 826 00:50:47,419 --> 00:50:50,839 The dialogue, strange. A bit like a... 827 00:50:50,922 --> 00:50:54,968 like an enigma. Like a-- But I don't know. 828 00:50:55,052 --> 00:50:56,678 I don't really know what it meant. 829 00:50:56,762 --> 00:50:58,513 Well, it's about performance. 830 00:50:58,597 --> 00:51:00,140 No, it's just that David Bowie 831 00:51:00,223 --> 00:51:02,684 was always hiding behind different personalities, 832 00:51:02,768 --> 00:51:04,311 you know, different masks. 833 00:51:04,394 --> 00:51:07,064 So the whole idea was, who are you really, you know? 834 00:51:08,065 --> 00:51:10,567 David Bowie said to me, "Why don't you sing?" 835 00:51:10,650 --> 00:51:12,527 I said, "Well, I'm not a singer. I'm a... 836 00:51:12,611 --> 00:51:14,279 you know, I'm a fashion model." 837 00:51:14,362 --> 00:51:16,323 So David Bowie said, "No, but you've got a voice 838 00:51:16,406 --> 00:51:18,366 that you should cultivate, 839 00:51:18,450 --> 00:51:20,327 and I think you could be a singer." 840 00:51:20,410 --> 00:51:22,287 So he sent me to singing classes. 841 00:51:22,370 --> 00:51:25,332 His manager, Tony Defries, put me under contract, 842 00:51:25,874 --> 00:51:28,794 and for a couple of years I followed David Bowie around. 843 00:51:28,877 --> 00:51:30,545 We had a little fling going on. 844 00:51:31,254 --> 00:51:33,006 I suppose we were in love. 845 00:51:36,927 --> 00:51:40,972 And after a couple of years, um, nothing was happening. 846 00:51:41,056 --> 00:51:42,974 So I was getting restless and I said, 847 00:51:43,058 --> 00:51:44,893 "Well, when am I gonna be, you know, 848 00:51:44,976 --> 00:51:46,686 having my first record released?" 849 00:51:46,770 --> 00:51:49,815 So I got fed up. I took a plane, I flew back to Europe. 850 00:51:49,898 --> 00:51:51,274 And in Germany... 851 00:51:51,817 --> 00:51:53,151 this German record company 852 00:51:53,235 --> 00:51:55,070 called Ariola put me under contract. 853 00:51:55,153 --> 00:51:56,905 They gave me a seven-years contract 854 00:51:56,988 --> 00:52:00,325 and they said, "Okay, we like your voice, we like you, 855 00:52:00,408 --> 00:52:01,868 but you have to do disco." 856 00:52:01,952 --> 00:52:03,912 And so we cut this first record. 857 00:52:03,995 --> 00:52:06,373 -I Am a Photograph, the first album. -Exactly. 858 00:52:06,456 --> 00:52:09,209 Exactly. Because David Bowie fell in love 859 00:52:09,292 --> 00:52:10,418 with a photograph, 860 00:52:10,502 --> 00:52:11,962 I decided to call my album, 861 00:52:12,045 --> 00:52:15,298 I Am a Photograph. Not a real person. 862 00:52:33,108 --> 00:52:36,403 I finally signed my seven-years contract 863 00:52:36,486 --> 00:52:40,115 and I sold 28 million records all over the world 864 00:52:40,198 --> 00:52:41,533 and money came in. 865 00:52:41,616 --> 00:52:43,326 I had that feeling 866 00:52:43,410 --> 00:52:46,496 of revenging myself on all those years 867 00:52:46,580 --> 00:52:48,540 when I was just looked at... 868 00:52:49,332 --> 00:52:50,876 like an object, like a thing. 869 00:52:50,959 --> 00:52:53,211 "You're just a beautiful girl, you know, a model." 870 00:52:53,295 --> 00:52:54,921 That was very frustrating. 871 00:52:55,005 --> 00:52:57,799 Now I can communicate with people 872 00:52:57,883 --> 00:53:00,677 through my music. That is, for me, a revenge. 873 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,680 And that's why I call my second album Sweet Revenge. 874 00:53:05,557 --> 00:53:07,475 I decided to make it a story, you see. 875 00:53:07,559 --> 00:53:09,561 So that from the first track, it'd carry on 876 00:53:09,644 --> 00:53:11,271 to the second track, the third track. 877 00:53:11,354 --> 00:53:15,650 And the story was the story of Faust. 878 00:53:15,734 --> 00:53:18,653 The devil offered Faust 879 00:53:18,737 --> 00:53:21,156 fame, glory, whatever, beauty, 880 00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:23,283 in exchange for his soul. 881 00:53:23,825 --> 00:53:27,579 And Faust signed. And I thought, now that's a good story. 882 00:53:27,662 --> 00:53:30,373 Let's convert it into showbiz. 883 00:53:30,498 --> 00:53:34,836 Let's say that this girl wants to become famous worldwide, 884 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,382 and she's ready to sell her soul to the devil to become famous. 885 00:53:40,717 --> 00:53:43,678 That's why I wrote this song called "Follow Me." 886 00:53:43,762 --> 00:53:45,764 In fact, the whole idea was that the devil 887 00:53:45,847 --> 00:53:47,265 was saying to this girl, 888 00:53:47,349 --> 00:53:48,975 "Follow me. Follow me. 889 00:53:49,059 --> 00:53:50,644 I'll give you anything you want. 890 00:53:50,727 --> 00:53:52,562 You'll be rich, you'll be famous." 891 00:53:52,646 --> 00:53:54,397 So follow me 892 00:53:54,481 --> 00:53:56,608 Just follow me 893 00:53:58,276 --> 00:54:00,487 And you said that it was autobiographical. 894 00:54:00,570 --> 00:54:01,571 Did you feel... 895 00:54:02,405 --> 00:54:04,157 like you sold your soul? 896 00:54:04,783 --> 00:54:05,951 And in what way? 897 00:54:06,701 --> 00:54:09,704 It's not autobiographical. No, it's not. It's not me. 898 00:54:09,788 --> 00:54:11,498 It's not autobiographical 899 00:54:11,581 --> 00:54:13,667 'cause I did not sell my soul to the devil. 900 00:54:13,792 --> 00:54:14,793 But you have sometimes, 901 00:54:14,876 --> 00:54:16,878 when you're successful in showbiz, 902 00:54:16,962 --> 00:54:21,007 you have this sensation that a little part of yourself 903 00:54:21,091 --> 00:54:22,217 has been sold. 904 00:54:23,343 --> 00:54:25,762 But anyway, "Follow Me" was a really big success, 905 00:54:25,845 --> 00:54:27,097 at least in Europe. 906 00:54:27,180 --> 00:54:29,516 The European queen of disco, 907 00:54:29,599 --> 00:54:31,184 Miss Amanda Lear! 908 00:54:31,268 --> 00:54:32,644 Amanda Lear. 909 00:54:32,727 --> 00:54:34,354 -Amanda Lear. -Amanda Lear. 910 00:54:34,437 --> 00:54:37,399 Ladies and gentlemen, Amanda Lear! 911 00:55:03,383 --> 00:55:05,969 Oh, disco music is very fresh. It's alive. 912 00:55:07,429 --> 00:55:10,473 Grace Jones, Amanda Lear... 913 00:55:10,557 --> 00:55:11,933 -Donna Summer. -...Donna Summer, yes. 914 00:55:12,017 --> 00:55:13,601 I think this is very good 915 00:55:13,685 --> 00:55:15,562 for this fresh, new group of people. 916 00:55:46,676 --> 00:55:48,303 What would you like people to know 917 00:55:48,386 --> 00:55:50,013 about your life? What are you proud of? 918 00:55:50,096 --> 00:55:51,431 Well... 919 00:55:52,182 --> 00:55:54,142 First, it's important to say 920 00:55:54,225 --> 00:55:57,562 that practically everything that you have read 921 00:55:57,645 --> 00:55:59,189 in my biography 922 00:55:59,272 --> 00:56:00,482 is not true. 923 00:56:01,608 --> 00:56:04,235 I think some, um, asshole 924 00:56:04,319 --> 00:56:08,073 has dug out this publicity handout. 925 00:56:08,156 --> 00:56:12,410 And anybody who believe that I am a man 926 00:56:12,494 --> 00:56:13,995 obviously is an idiot. 927 00:56:15,330 --> 00:56:17,665 There is a truth in having been a boy. 928 00:56:17,749 --> 00:56:19,459 You were called John and-- 929 00:56:19,542 --> 00:56:22,003 -John? -No? That's what I read. 930 00:56:26,508 --> 00:56:29,719 No, there is absolutely no truth 931 00:56:29,803 --> 00:56:33,848 about me having my sex changed. 932 00:56:33,932 --> 00:56:35,642 I never changed my sex. 933 00:56:35,725 --> 00:56:37,394 I don't want to change my sex. 934 00:56:37,477 --> 00:56:38,645 I like my sex. 935 00:56:39,354 --> 00:56:42,065 I don't see why I should change my sex. And I-- 936 00:56:42,148 --> 00:56:44,067 I don't see any reason for it at the moment. 937 00:56:47,570 --> 00:56:50,949 Absolutely. Some people maybe think 938 00:56:51,032 --> 00:56:52,700 I am a man, but, um... 939 00:56:54,035 --> 00:56:55,829 I don't think I look like a man, 940 00:56:55,912 --> 00:56:57,330 -and... -Not anymore, 941 00:56:57,414 --> 00:57:00,500 but what does the word "transsexual" 942 00:57:00,583 --> 00:57:02,001 mean to you at all? 943 00:57:02,085 --> 00:57:04,045 Does it have any role in your life 944 00:57:04,129 --> 00:57:06,089 or is it something you don't rather like-- 945 00:57:06,172 --> 00:57:08,758 don't like to talk about? That's the question. 946 00:57:08,842 --> 00:57:10,009 Well, I can-- 947 00:57:13,263 --> 00:57:16,850 I can only talk about the things I know. 948 00:57:16,933 --> 00:57:19,436 About transsexuals, I don't know. 949 00:57:19,519 --> 00:57:22,230 I was only wondering why the hell, 950 00:57:22,313 --> 00:57:24,649 before, we agreed on the topic, 951 00:57:24,732 --> 00:57:26,860 and now you say, you know, it's not valid. 952 00:57:26,943 --> 00:57:29,028 -No, no, no. -I feel a bit faked. 953 00:57:29,112 --> 00:57:30,488 I just... 954 00:57:30,572 --> 00:57:32,949 You see, I come here because I made a record 955 00:57:33,032 --> 00:57:35,076 and I want to sell my record, 956 00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:37,537 and I want everybody to see my record. 957 00:57:37,620 --> 00:57:39,080 -Oh, yes. -I don't come here to do 958 00:57:39,164 --> 00:57:41,708 a campaign for transsexual people because 959 00:57:41,791 --> 00:57:44,085 -they can do it themselves. -Oh, of course not. 960 00:57:44,169 --> 00:57:47,297 I'm sorry about it. But if you want me to sympathize, 961 00:57:47,380 --> 00:57:49,841 I sympathize deeply because... 962 00:57:49,924 --> 00:57:52,093 I want everybody in the world to be happy. 963 00:57:52,177 --> 00:57:57,640 And I am bored and tired with scandal publicity. 964 00:57:57,724 --> 00:58:01,519 I do not want to pose nude in Playboy magazine, 965 00:58:01,603 --> 00:58:04,814 although they offer me a lot of money, 10,000 marks. 966 00:58:04,898 --> 00:58:07,442 -You know, it's cheap publicity. -Oh, yes, alright. 967 00:58:07,525 --> 00:58:09,944 -I do agree on that. I just-- -So, I only want people 968 00:58:10,028 --> 00:58:14,407 to judge me on who I am-- what I do, you see. 969 00:58:15,450 --> 00:58:17,869 Do you remember this interview 970 00:58:17,952 --> 00:58:21,080 on German television in 1976? 971 00:58:22,165 --> 00:58:24,834 Well, I wasn't speaking German when I arrived in Germany. 972 00:58:24,959 --> 00:58:27,462 So to me, it was very difficult to... 973 00:58:28,254 --> 00:58:30,340 to go on television and be interviewed. 974 00:58:30,423 --> 00:58:33,343 So my-my very first interviews at the beginning 975 00:58:33,426 --> 00:58:34,886 when I was launched, 976 00:58:35,678 --> 00:58:38,640 I didn't know what to say. I was-- It was very difficult. 977 00:58:38,723 --> 00:58:40,391 It's easy to make fun of people, you know, 978 00:58:40,475 --> 00:58:42,060 if they don't understand what they say. 979 00:58:43,353 --> 00:58:45,855 What-- What was that like for you at the time? 980 00:58:45,939 --> 00:58:49,526 'Cause when I watch it today, it's-it's very painful. 981 00:58:49,609 --> 00:58:52,862 Yes, it is painful because you hesitate, 982 00:58:52,946 --> 00:58:54,489 you don't know what to say. 983 00:58:56,157 --> 00:58:57,534 Now I've learned. 984 00:59:53,047 --> 00:59:54,799 The story went around that Amanda Lear 985 00:59:54,882 --> 00:59:56,217 was perhaps a man 986 00:59:56,301 --> 00:59:58,219 and that made me even more attractive. 987 00:59:58,303 --> 01:00:01,472 So, it's why maybe you did the photo in Playboy, no? 988 01:00:01,556 --> 01:00:03,099 You posed nude. 989 01:00:10,648 --> 01:00:13,276 I think there was such a high price to pay 990 01:00:13,359 --> 01:00:15,903 at the time for being out, 991 01:00:15,987 --> 01:00:19,532 and Amanda Lear surmised the situation, 992 01:00:19,616 --> 01:00:22,619 made her choice, and then she stuck to it. 993 01:00:37,884 --> 01:00:41,846 And that sort of enigma, 994 01:00:41,929 --> 01:00:43,806 as she calls it in some of her songs... 995 01:00:45,642 --> 01:00:50,647 is the entire interest in her, really. 996 01:00:55,735 --> 01:00:57,070 Even in her music, 997 01:00:57,153 --> 01:00:59,947 Amanda Lear is always playing with that line 998 01:01:00,031 --> 01:01:01,658 of "Am I or aren't I," 999 01:01:01,741 --> 01:01:03,826 and sometimes just flat out saying it. 1000 01:01:18,925 --> 01:01:22,261 For someone who so strenuously denies being trans, 1001 01:01:22,345 --> 01:01:26,599 she has made an entire career out of being trans, 1002 01:01:26,683 --> 01:01:29,185 and just not saying the word. 1003 01:01:35,525 --> 01:01:38,236 Now, my next guest is someone whose name has been the target 1004 01:01:38,319 --> 01:01:40,863 of many a ripe remark over the past ten years. 1005 01:01:40,947 --> 01:01:43,533 She first came to public notice when her name 1006 01:01:43,616 --> 01:01:45,326 was blazoned across the front pages 1007 01:01:45,410 --> 01:01:47,704 of the Sunday newspapers as the man 1008 01:01:47,787 --> 01:01:50,915 who had had the effrontery to undergo an operation 1009 01:01:50,998 --> 01:01:52,291 and become a woman. 1010 01:01:52,917 --> 01:01:55,586 Since then, she has undergone the even more painful business 1011 01:01:55,670 --> 01:01:57,296 of divorcing the man she married 1012 01:01:57,380 --> 01:01:59,132 and being told by a judge 1013 01:01:59,215 --> 01:02:02,176 that she didn't measure up to being a woman anyway. 1014 01:02:02,260 --> 01:02:04,303 Well, she's here to tell us where she stands tonight. 1015 01:02:04,387 --> 01:02:06,973 Ladies and gentlemen, Ms. April Ashley. 1016 01:02:16,524 --> 01:02:19,861 It's a very medieval gown, that, isn't it? 1017 01:02:19,944 --> 01:02:21,904 No, I think it's Japanese, actually. 1018 01:02:21,988 --> 01:02:23,948 Now, let's get on to you. How many years ago now is it 1019 01:02:24,031 --> 01:02:26,701 -since you had your operation? -God, I can't remember. 1020 01:02:26,784 --> 01:02:29,078 Are you still an object of curiosity in England? 1021 01:02:29,162 --> 01:02:32,290 Oh, I think so. Why do you think they're all staring so intently? 1022 01:02:35,376 --> 01:02:36,961 While I watched some of my friends 1023 01:02:37,044 --> 01:02:39,922 from The Carrousel move forward with their lives, 1024 01:02:40,006 --> 01:02:43,676 the newspaper attention had enshrined me in notoriety. 1025 01:02:44,761 --> 01:02:46,929 I had never wished to hide who I was, 1026 01:02:47,597 --> 01:02:49,557 but in the face of a media merry-go-round 1027 01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:53,436 that persistently diminished me as merely a sex change, 1028 01:02:53,519 --> 01:02:56,355 I had to constantly assert my humanity. 1029 01:02:57,106 --> 01:02:59,859 I mean, I had people coming up and poke me in the breasts 1030 01:02:59,942 --> 01:03:01,444 and saying, "Are they real?" 1031 01:03:01,527 --> 01:03:04,697 Pulling my hair and saying, "Is that real?" You know? 1032 01:03:04,781 --> 01:03:06,657 Which didn't happen before the marriage? 1033 01:03:06,741 --> 01:03:09,702 Most certainly never. Not-- No. Not ever. 1034 01:03:09,786 --> 01:03:11,287 What do you think it was about the decision 1035 01:03:11,370 --> 01:03:12,830 that made people react that way? 1036 01:03:12,914 --> 01:03:14,373 Well, I think it just stripped-- 1037 01:03:14,499 --> 01:03:17,335 stripped you, it denuded you. It sort of gave-- 1038 01:03:17,418 --> 01:03:20,213 It gave very ordinary people in the street... 1039 01:03:21,130 --> 01:03:26,552 a feeling that they had a right to bully you, if you like. 1040 01:03:26,636 --> 01:03:29,806 Ordinary people in the street would come up, 1041 01:03:29,889 --> 01:03:31,933 and they would behave... 1042 01:03:32,767 --> 01:03:36,604 in such a way that, in the end, you wondered who was the freak. 1043 01:03:36,687 --> 01:03:38,648 Was it you or was it them? 1044 01:03:38,731 --> 01:03:41,108 Because they behaved so abominably. 1045 01:03:43,528 --> 01:03:46,447 So eventually, in 1970, 1046 01:03:46,531 --> 01:03:48,741 I was living in, again, in London. 1047 01:03:48,825 --> 01:03:50,576 But I couldn't get a job. 1048 01:03:50,660 --> 01:03:52,078 I couldn't get a job as a model. 1049 01:03:52,161 --> 01:03:54,497 I couldn't get a job as a salesperson. 1050 01:03:54,580 --> 01:03:56,499 I couldn't get a job at anything. 1051 01:03:56,582 --> 01:03:58,084 Nobody would employ me. 1052 01:03:58,793 --> 01:04:01,045 So I opened a restaurant. 1053 01:04:02,463 --> 01:04:05,800 And it was an extraordinary success. 1054 01:04:07,093 --> 01:04:09,887 And my customers buy my glamor. 1055 01:04:09,971 --> 01:04:11,973 That's part of the deal, in fact? 1056 01:04:12,056 --> 01:04:14,308 Yes, but they have a lot of fun too. 1057 01:04:15,852 --> 01:04:19,230 We had royalty, we had the aristocrats, 1058 01:04:19,313 --> 01:04:20,857 we had the pops, 1059 01:04:20,940 --> 01:04:24,151 and we had the hoi polloi. It was extraordinary. 1060 01:04:24,235 --> 01:04:27,029 You had to book three months in advance to get in. 1061 01:04:28,948 --> 01:04:31,325 But Amanda was entirely absent. 1062 01:04:31,868 --> 01:04:34,537 We still spoke on the phone when she was glum. 1063 01:04:35,204 --> 01:04:38,332 And I offered many times to host her at the restaurant. 1064 01:04:38,958 --> 01:04:40,459 But she never turned up. 1065 01:05:01,397 --> 01:05:02,982 I met my husband 1066 01:05:03,065 --> 01:05:05,109 after my second album. 1067 01:05:05,192 --> 01:05:06,861 Yeah, after Sweet Revenge. 1068 01:05:06,944 --> 01:05:10,072 I saw this charming boy coming to my dressing room. 1069 01:05:10,865 --> 01:05:12,033 I liked him very much. 1070 01:05:12,116 --> 01:05:14,118 I thought he was sweet and charming. 1071 01:05:14,243 --> 01:05:15,745 And I said to him, uh, 1072 01:05:15,828 --> 01:05:17,788 "After tomorrow, I'm going to Brazil 1073 01:05:17,872 --> 01:05:19,248 to do a television show. 1074 01:05:19,290 --> 01:05:22,001 Do you want to come with me?" Just like that. 1075 01:05:22,126 --> 01:05:23,669 And that's how it started. 1076 01:05:23,753 --> 01:05:25,046 I took him with me in the plane, 1077 01:05:25,129 --> 01:05:26,714 we arrived in Rio de Janeiro, 1078 01:05:26,797 --> 01:05:28,883 and it was love. 1079 01:05:41,395 --> 01:05:43,856 Once we were married I realized, 1080 01:05:43,940 --> 01:05:46,651 "My God, I'm not Amanda Lear anymore. 1081 01:05:46,734 --> 01:05:48,945 I am now Madame Malagnac." 1082 01:05:52,573 --> 01:05:55,868 I wanted to remain that figure that my fans loved. 1083 01:05:57,078 --> 01:05:58,537 It was a big sacrifice. 1084 01:06:01,582 --> 01:06:03,834 I wanted to be famous. I wanted to be rich. 1085 01:06:03,918 --> 01:06:06,253 I wanted to travel the world, have fans. 1086 01:06:07,129 --> 01:06:10,383 And what he wanted, my husband, was to have a wife, 1087 01:06:10,466 --> 01:06:11,634 you know, staying home. 1088 01:06:12,510 --> 01:06:15,680 It's not a very nice position for a husband, you know, 1089 01:06:15,763 --> 01:06:17,556 to have the wife being on stage 1090 01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:19,225 and him sitting there in the wings. 1091 01:06:19,934 --> 01:06:21,769 So he wasn't very happy about it. 1092 01:06:21,852 --> 01:06:23,396 Which is why I think... 1093 01:06:23,479 --> 01:06:26,983 it was, perhaps, not a terribly happy marriage. 1094 01:06:27,066 --> 01:06:29,694 And, uh, that is why... 1095 01:06:29,777 --> 01:06:31,737 Well, it's because of-of showbiz. 1096 01:06:31,821 --> 01:06:34,031 Because of the fame. 1097 01:06:52,675 --> 01:06:55,094 I adored writing lyrics, you see. 1098 01:06:55,177 --> 01:06:58,055 So, all of those hundreds of songs I released, 1099 01:06:58,139 --> 01:06:59,515 I wrote them all. 1100 01:06:59,598 --> 01:07:03,144 And I was trying every time to say something. 1101 01:07:03,811 --> 01:07:05,813 Philosophical or not, or whatever. 1102 01:07:05,896 --> 01:07:09,775 Talk about illusion, about lies, about love, w-whatever. 1103 01:07:10,693 --> 01:07:14,238 Unfortunately, nobody was listening to those lyrics. 1104 01:07:14,321 --> 01:07:16,657 Except you, perhaps. 1105 01:07:16,741 --> 01:07:18,325 Nobody was interested in my lyrics. 1106 01:07:18,409 --> 01:07:19,660 It was very frustrating. 1107 01:07:20,244 --> 01:07:22,329 "I keep looking for all the faces I had, 1108 01:07:22,413 --> 01:07:23,956 before the world began. 1109 01:07:24,832 --> 01:07:28,210 I've only known desire and my poor soul will burn 1110 01:07:28,294 --> 01:07:30,379 -into eternal fire." -That's "The Sphinx." 1111 01:07:30,421 --> 01:07:32,131 "And I can't even cry." 1112 01:07:32,214 --> 01:07:34,216 -Yeah, that's "The Sphinx." -"A sphinx can never cry." 1113 01:07:34,300 --> 01:07:37,136 I wish that I could be 1114 01:07:37,219 --> 01:07:40,973 A silent sphinx eternally 1115 01:07:42,391 --> 01:07:44,393 "I'm famous or am I infamous?" 1116 01:07:44,477 --> 01:07:45,519 Yes. 1117 01:07:45,603 --> 01:07:47,605 "It doesn't matter much anymore. 1118 01:07:47,688 --> 01:07:49,899 Phony words of love or painfully truth." 1119 01:07:49,982 --> 01:07:52,485 -Yeah. -"I've heard it all before. 1120 01:07:52,568 --> 01:07:54,904 Appraisal or critics or even politics." 1121 01:07:54,987 --> 01:07:57,239 -Yeah. -"A conversation piece. 1122 01:07:57,323 --> 01:07:58,824 A woman or a priest. 1123 01:07:58,908 --> 01:08:00,493 It's all a point of view. 1124 01:08:00,576 --> 01:08:02,453 -I am standing in the sun." -Absolutely. 1125 01:08:02,536 --> 01:08:04,747 That's all those people asking question... 1126 01:08:05,748 --> 01:08:10,669 I'm famous or am I infamous? It doesn't matter much anymore 1127 01:08:10,753 --> 01:08:12,838 Yes, it's-- I was asking myself all those questions. 1128 01:08:12,922 --> 01:08:15,466 In fact, you know. "Why are they all after me?" 1129 01:08:15,549 --> 01:08:17,093 Uh... "Why they criticize me?" 1130 01:08:18,051 --> 01:08:20,095 "Why do they want to know who I am, where--" 1131 01:08:20,179 --> 01:08:22,640 It was difficult. So I wrote this song, "The Sphinx" 1132 01:08:22,723 --> 01:08:25,935 'cause the sphinx never cry. 1133 01:08:26,018 --> 01:08:29,354 I wanted to-- not to be hurt by all this. 1134 01:08:29,438 --> 01:08:31,689 And if you're a sphinx, you are... 1135 01:08:31,774 --> 01:08:33,984 You don't care. You're a statue. 1136 01:08:34,068 --> 01:08:35,611 I wanted to be like that. 1137 01:08:43,035 --> 01:08:45,830 I realized that people, they-they want to dream. 1138 01:08:46,956 --> 01:08:50,459 People need to say, "Oh, I want to be like Amanda Lear." 1139 01:08:50,584 --> 01:08:52,920 Why not try to be like Amanda Lear? 1140 01:08:53,002 --> 01:08:55,089 Whether you're man or not a woman, 1141 01:08:55,171 --> 01:08:56,674 or trans or whatever, 1142 01:08:56,756 --> 01:08:58,259 try to be Amanda Lear if you want. 1143 01:08:58,341 --> 01:09:00,719 I don't even know who Amanda Lear represent for them. 1144 01:09:00,803 --> 01:09:02,555 I don't... I don't really know. 1145 01:09:02,638 --> 01:09:04,932 I'm so normal. I'm so down to Earth. 1146 01:09:05,015 --> 01:09:06,015 I'm so... 1147 01:09:08,018 --> 01:09:12,481 I don't-- I don't feel that I live in a world of fantasy, 1148 01:09:12,564 --> 01:09:15,776 of-of sequins and glitter, and... 1149 01:09:15,859 --> 01:09:18,863 No, really. I feel like I'm totally normal. 1150 01:09:55,900 --> 01:09:58,527 Paris, sexy 1151 01:11:54,893 --> 01:11:57,313 -Marie-Pierre Pruvot, bonjour. -Bonjour. 1152 01:12:45,944 --> 01:12:47,488 Did you know Bambi? 1153 01:12:48,447 --> 01:12:49,823 Never met her. 1154 01:12:51,241 --> 01:12:52,951 I know who she is, obviously. 1155 01:12:53,035 --> 01:12:54,536 But I never met her. 1156 01:12:56,288 --> 01:12:59,208 From what I understand, she was... a teacher. 1157 01:12:59,291 --> 01:13:02,711 She was a teacher in school for many years. 1158 01:13:02,836 --> 01:13:06,215 Intelligent. I know she wrote quite a few books. 1159 01:13:06,882 --> 01:13:08,717 No, she's intelligent. I-I know her 1160 01:13:08,801 --> 01:13:10,677 because she came to see me in the theater. 1161 01:13:10,761 --> 01:13:13,180 I never met her personally, but she-she came to see 1162 01:13:13,263 --> 01:13:15,140 my-my plays in the theater. 1163 01:13:15,224 --> 01:13:16,725 And she wrote me 1164 01:13:16,809 --> 01:13:20,145 a couple of very nice letters, congratulation and all, 1165 01:13:20,229 --> 01:13:22,815 "You're wonderful on stage, I'm an admirer." 1166 01:13:22,898 --> 01:13:24,775 Very-- I think she's a very... 1167 01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:28,112 proper person. 1168 01:13:28,195 --> 01:13:29,405 But I never met her. 1169 01:13:42,334 --> 01:13:44,503 I have to explain to anyone who doesn't know that-- 1170 01:13:44,586 --> 01:13:46,755 Is this gin and tonic or champagne? 1171 01:13:46,839 --> 01:13:48,715 Well, if it's champagne, it's pretty pale. 1172 01:13:48,799 --> 01:13:49,967 -You can sip it and see. -Yes. 1173 01:13:50,050 --> 01:13:52,052 Oh, it's blue. It's gin and tonic. 1174 01:13:52,136 --> 01:13:54,972 Now, you began your life not as April Ashley 1175 01:13:55,055 --> 01:13:57,766 but as George Jamieson, I think I'm right in saying. 1176 01:13:57,850 --> 01:14:00,436 -Yes. -So you are a remarkable person. 1177 01:14:01,103 --> 01:14:02,604 I wanted, like anyone else, 1178 01:14:02,688 --> 01:14:05,357 to be many things to many people. 1179 01:14:05,441 --> 01:14:09,236 But my sole role in life became to justify myself as a woman 1180 01:14:09,319 --> 01:14:11,405 and to tell my story of transition. 1181 01:14:12,448 --> 01:14:13,949 I was endlessly subjected 1182 01:14:14,032 --> 01:14:16,076 to the same offensive line of questioning. 1183 01:14:17,953 --> 01:14:19,496 One has to talk a little bit 1184 01:14:19,580 --> 01:14:21,248 about the whole problem of sex changes, 1185 01:14:21,331 --> 01:14:23,208 because I was talking to some psychiatrist. 1186 01:14:23,292 --> 01:14:26,962 He said one of the criteria was that if you were ugly 1187 01:14:27,045 --> 01:14:28,547 and look terrifically like a man, 1188 01:14:28,630 --> 01:14:30,549 you know, they wouldn't do it 1189 01:14:30,632 --> 01:14:32,301 because you'd be sort of more miserable after that. 1190 01:14:32,384 --> 01:14:34,261 That was the implication. Um, what-- 1191 01:14:34,344 --> 01:14:36,430 The need is just as great if you look revolting... 1192 01:14:36,513 --> 01:14:38,432 -Well, abs-- No, no, no. -...and very manly. 1193 01:14:38,515 --> 01:14:41,268 I can't go along with that, because the criteria for me 1194 01:14:41,351 --> 01:14:42,853 is what you are mentally. 1195 01:14:44,521 --> 01:14:47,024 And so, it doesn't matter if you're beautiful. 1196 01:14:51,361 --> 01:14:53,113 One day, while yachting with friends 1197 01:14:53,197 --> 01:14:54,531 in the south of France, 1198 01:14:54,615 --> 01:14:56,450 we docked in Saint-Tropez, 1199 01:14:56,533 --> 01:14:58,911 and whom should I see but Amanda Lear 1200 01:14:58,994 --> 01:15:00,662 sitting outside a cafe. 1201 01:15:01,497 --> 01:15:03,707 I waved her over from the deck of the yacht 1202 01:15:03,749 --> 01:15:07,586 and she instantly fled the scene on bicycle. 1203 01:15:08,587 --> 01:15:11,673 I understood then that I was an artifact 1204 01:15:11,757 --> 01:15:14,009 from the past she had discarded. 1205 01:15:15,928 --> 01:15:18,931 April Ashley tells this story about seeing you 1206 01:15:19,014 --> 01:15:21,600 when she was on a yacht, in her book. 1207 01:15:23,685 --> 01:15:25,979 And that she sent somebody down... 1208 01:15:27,689 --> 01:15:29,358 Darling, so many people write stories. 1209 01:15:29,441 --> 01:15:30,776 They can write what they want. 1210 01:15:31,485 --> 01:15:33,195 It didn't change anything for me. 1211 01:15:33,737 --> 01:15:35,030 She write what she want. 1212 01:15:36,365 --> 01:15:38,116 It did not change a thing. 1213 01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:40,744 I still carried on-- selling record, 1214 01:15:40,827 --> 01:15:42,871 going on stage, making shows, 1215 01:15:42,955 --> 01:15:44,831 having beautiful boyfriends. 1216 01:15:46,458 --> 01:15:47,834 My life didn't change. 1217 01:15:47,918 --> 01:15:50,504 So she can-- They-- Her and all the people, 1218 01:15:50,587 --> 01:15:52,464 perhaps, can write what they want. 1219 01:15:52,548 --> 01:15:54,174 Dalí was fascinated by you. 1220 01:15:54,258 --> 01:15:56,635 But he was also fascinated by the whole sex change... 1221 01:15:56,718 --> 01:15:59,012 aspect of your life. I mean, it's ridiculous to deny that, 1222 01:15:59,096 --> 01:16:01,139 because April Ashley's book is there. 1223 01:16:01,223 --> 01:16:02,641 -Yes, I-I... -Do you object 1224 01:16:02,724 --> 01:16:04,768 -to my asking you about that? -Yes. I read her book, 1225 01:16:04,851 --> 01:16:07,938 and I... I couldn't understand 1226 01:16:08,021 --> 01:16:11,066 why she made up so many stories in her book. 1227 01:16:11,942 --> 01:16:14,570 Suddenly, people came up and say, 1228 01:16:14,653 --> 01:16:17,072 "Ah, you were a sex change." 1229 01:16:17,155 --> 01:16:19,449 And I said, "It's a good story. Let's keep it," you know. 1230 01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:21,743 Yeah, I've seen that picture before. 1231 01:16:21,827 --> 01:16:23,620 The problem with that woman, uh... 1232 01:16:23,704 --> 01:16:25,455 What's her name? That one there. 1233 01:16:26,582 --> 01:16:29,835 She died, I think, a few years ago. 1234 01:16:29,918 --> 01:16:33,547 The problem is that she was a complete alcoholic. 1235 01:16:34,256 --> 01:16:35,799 Yeah. I met her in London. 1236 01:16:36,508 --> 01:16:39,761 She was running a club, a restaurant, 1237 01:16:39,845 --> 01:16:41,805 and she was totally... 1238 01:16:41,888 --> 01:16:42,973 pissed every night. 1239 01:16:43,056 --> 01:16:46,143 And everybody know that she was a bit of a mythomaniac, 1240 01:16:46,226 --> 01:16:49,271 inventing herself a past as a great model. 1241 01:16:49,354 --> 01:16:51,398 The... Which is not true. 1242 01:16:51,481 --> 01:16:53,275 It's a bit sad, actually, her life, 1243 01:16:53,358 --> 01:16:56,153 because that is a typical life of someone 1244 01:16:56,236 --> 01:16:59,239 who did not make it in showbiz, at least, 1245 01:16:59,323 --> 01:17:02,284 and desperately wanted to be in showbiz. 1246 01:17:03,410 --> 01:17:04,995 But a part of that was her saying, 1247 01:17:05,078 --> 01:17:07,331 "I am trans," right? 1248 01:17:07,414 --> 01:17:10,709 A part of it was that she said, 1249 01:17:10,792 --> 01:17:12,294 "This is who I am." 1250 01:17:12,919 --> 01:17:15,631 And then, because of the circumstances 1251 01:17:15,714 --> 01:17:17,132 -of the time-- -I think in England 1252 01:17:17,215 --> 01:17:19,217 she was quite famous, in England, yeah. 1253 01:17:19,301 --> 01:17:21,178 Only in England, though. I don't know. 1254 01:17:21,261 --> 01:17:23,305 Not in France or in Italy or whatever. 1255 01:17:23,388 --> 01:17:24,723 But in England she was quite famous, 1256 01:17:24,806 --> 01:17:26,266 she went on television. 1257 01:17:26,350 --> 01:17:27,559 She became very grand. 1258 01:17:27,643 --> 01:17:29,686 I saw a picture of her looking very... 1259 01:17:31,229 --> 01:17:32,856 Late in life. 1260 01:17:32,939 --> 01:17:34,149 But as a young woman, 1261 01:17:34,232 --> 01:17:37,027 she didn't have a ton of opportunities. Right? 1262 01:17:37,110 --> 01:17:38,820 I don't know. I don't know what she was doing. 1263 01:17:38,904 --> 01:17:41,156 Tell you, she was drinking too much, probably, 1264 01:17:41,239 --> 01:17:43,158 or hanging around the wrong people. 1265 01:17:43,241 --> 01:17:45,827 I don't know what she was doing when she was young. 1266 01:17:45,911 --> 01:17:48,246 Now she was the epitome of the swinging '60s. 1267 01:17:48,330 --> 01:17:50,374 Showgirl and socialite April Ashley 1268 01:17:50,457 --> 01:17:53,335 was regarded as one of the most popular celebrities of her era. 1269 01:17:53,418 --> 01:17:56,755 What do you view as your biggest achievement? 1270 01:17:56,838 --> 01:17:58,423 Becoming me. 1271 01:17:58,507 --> 01:18:02,427 Even to this day, now that it's 53 years later, 1272 01:18:03,303 --> 01:18:06,682 I still wake up in the morning with a little sense of joy, 1273 01:18:06,765 --> 01:18:07,974 of that moment. 1274 01:18:10,394 --> 01:18:14,106 I had written to Prime Minister Tony Blair 1275 01:18:14,189 --> 01:18:18,610 saying, why doesn't such a great country of ours 1276 01:18:18,694 --> 01:18:21,071 catch up with medical science 1277 01:18:21,154 --> 01:18:22,948 and enable transsexuals 1278 01:18:23,031 --> 01:18:25,033 to change their birth certificate? 1279 01:18:27,035 --> 01:18:29,079 Eventually, in 2004, 1280 01:18:29,162 --> 01:18:32,499 the UK very quietly bring forward 1281 01:18:32,582 --> 01:18:34,334 the Gender Recognition Act, 1282 01:18:34,418 --> 01:18:37,796 which gave trans people the right to change our gender 1283 01:18:37,879 --> 01:18:40,549 and thus gave us again the right to marry. 1284 01:18:40,632 --> 01:18:45,345 So trans people from 1970 to 2004 1285 01:18:45,429 --> 01:18:47,264 could not legally change their genders 1286 01:18:47,347 --> 01:18:49,683 all because of April Ashley's case. 1287 01:18:49,766 --> 01:18:51,476 Now, some people... 1288 01:18:52,102 --> 01:18:54,062 would have perhaps 1289 01:18:54,146 --> 01:18:56,481 thrown up their hands and walked away. 1290 01:18:57,232 --> 01:18:59,067 But to April Ashley's credit, 1291 01:18:59,151 --> 01:19:01,945 she continued to push, all the way up 1292 01:19:02,028 --> 01:19:04,906 until the Gender Recognition Act and beyond, 1293 01:19:04,990 --> 01:19:08,285 for a change in the law. 1294 01:19:08,368 --> 01:19:10,120 She didn't abandon her community, 1295 01:19:10,203 --> 01:19:11,788 and I think that's one of the reasons 1296 01:19:11,872 --> 01:19:14,916 why April Ashley is so widely beloved, 1297 01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:17,294 especially by British trans people. 1298 01:19:17,377 --> 01:19:21,089 Because she fought for decades to get back the rights 1299 01:19:21,173 --> 01:19:24,176 that had been stolen from her and from all of us. 1300 01:19:25,343 --> 01:19:28,221 They had forced me in 1960 1301 01:19:28,305 --> 01:19:30,390 to change my name completely. 1302 01:19:30,474 --> 01:19:32,559 They wouldn't let me keep my family name, 1303 01:19:32,642 --> 01:19:33,643 which was Jamieson. 1304 01:19:34,436 --> 01:19:37,022 So it was an extraordinary thing. 1305 01:19:37,105 --> 01:19:39,065 In 2005, 1306 01:19:39,149 --> 01:19:41,276 we were sitting on the terrace in the South of France 1307 01:19:41,359 --> 01:19:42,944 on a beautiful sunny day, 1308 01:19:43,028 --> 01:19:45,405 and a big brown envelope arrived, 1309 01:19:45,489 --> 01:19:47,324 and I knew exactly what it was. 1310 01:19:48,742 --> 01:19:53,079 After nearly waiting 50 years, it was an enormous... 1311 01:19:54,080 --> 01:19:56,124 sense of satisfaction 1312 01:19:56,208 --> 01:19:59,669 to actually see that birth certificate, 1313 01:19:59,753 --> 01:20:02,964 which said, "April Jamieson. 1314 01:20:04,090 --> 01:20:05,300 Female." 1315 01:20:08,011 --> 01:20:09,304 Extraordinary. 1316 01:20:12,849 --> 01:20:14,684 See, if you live long enough 1317 01:20:14,768 --> 01:20:17,145 as I'm actually doing, 1318 01:20:17,896 --> 01:20:21,107 the most wonderful thing is you become an institution. 1319 01:20:21,191 --> 01:20:23,485 And once you become an institution, 1320 01:20:23,568 --> 01:20:25,654 you become quite respectable all over again. 1321 01:20:25,737 --> 01:20:29,074 But what happens in between becoming an institution, 1322 01:20:29,741 --> 01:20:32,494 and the fact is-is another story. 1323 01:20:34,246 --> 01:20:37,290 So my lesson to anybody listening is, 1324 01:20:37,415 --> 01:20:39,835 never, ever think life is over. 1325 01:20:39,918 --> 01:20:43,338 No matter what age you are, you just go on and on and on 1326 01:20:43,421 --> 01:20:47,467 and life keeps offering you the most wonderful surprises, 1327 01:20:47,551 --> 01:20:48,885 and take them. 1328 01:20:50,971 --> 01:20:52,389 I think one of the nicest things 1329 01:20:52,472 --> 01:20:53,682 that happened was, 1330 01:20:53,765 --> 01:20:56,518 that in Her Majesty's Honours List 1331 01:20:57,227 --> 01:20:58,979 I got an MBE. 1332 01:20:59,938 --> 01:21:03,400 Which means the Most Excellent Member of the British Empire. 1333 01:21:05,610 --> 01:21:07,654 And to be presented... 1334 01:21:08,780 --> 01:21:11,032 with that from the Prince of Wales 1335 01:21:11,116 --> 01:21:14,703 at Buckingham Palace was rather nice. 1336 01:21:14,786 --> 01:21:16,329 They wanted to make me a Dame, 1337 01:21:16,413 --> 01:21:19,666 but unfortunately, Lord Tebbit and Ann Widdecombe 1338 01:21:19,749 --> 01:21:23,128 and a few other Grandies said, "Absolutely not. 1339 01:21:23,211 --> 01:21:25,171 She is not getting a damehood, 1340 01:21:26,006 --> 01:21:27,799 but she can have an MBE." 1341 01:21:28,717 --> 01:21:31,678 But I don't like the title "Dame" anyhow, 1342 01:21:31,761 --> 01:21:33,096 so it doesn't matter. 1343 01:21:37,183 --> 01:21:39,102 There is nothing like a dame 1344 01:21:40,228 --> 01:21:42,606 She was forever telling me to moisturize. 1345 01:21:44,024 --> 01:21:45,400 "You'll be sorry," she'd say, 1346 01:21:45,483 --> 01:21:47,068 "if you don't moisturize now." 1347 01:21:48,695 --> 01:21:51,281 She was right. 1348 01:21:53,158 --> 01:21:55,368 April was invited to come back to Liverpool 1349 01:21:55,452 --> 01:21:57,078 in 2008 1350 01:21:57,162 --> 01:21:59,497 from a lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans, 1351 01:21:59,581 --> 01:22:01,082 um, festival in Liverpool. 1352 01:22:01,833 --> 01:22:04,461 And I know, having spoken to her when she came back, 1353 01:22:04,544 --> 01:22:07,505 that she was quite nervous about coming back, 1354 01:22:07,589 --> 01:22:09,883 um, because she hadn't been back here in quite a long time. 1355 01:22:09,966 --> 01:22:11,885 -There it is. -There it is. 1356 01:22:11,968 --> 01:22:14,888 That was my bedroom, called the box room. 1357 01:22:15,555 --> 01:22:17,307 Even as a child, you couldn't 1358 01:22:17,390 --> 01:22:20,268 put your arms outstretched, it's so narrow. 1359 01:22:20,352 --> 01:22:21,645 -Hi! -Hello! 1360 01:22:23,438 --> 01:22:25,690 -No... -She did at one time. 1361 01:22:26,608 --> 01:22:28,234 I used to live there. 1362 01:22:31,488 --> 01:22:33,448 She was programmed into St. George's Hall, 1363 01:22:33,531 --> 01:22:36,493 in a very historic building, and it's incredibly beautiful. 1364 01:22:36,576 --> 01:22:38,787 And I think that convinced her partly to come back. 1365 01:22:38,870 --> 01:22:40,372 She said to me, "I don't know if anybody 1366 01:22:40,455 --> 01:22:42,040 would remember me, you know, in Liverpool." 1367 01:22:42,123 --> 01:22:44,876 And of course the event sold out in a day. 1368 01:22:45,502 --> 01:22:47,754 And everywhere she went in the city 1369 01:22:47,837 --> 01:22:50,632 people were thrilled, thrilled to see her. 1370 01:22:52,217 --> 01:22:54,386 And then the Museum of Liverpool 1371 01:22:54,469 --> 01:22:57,055 had talked to her about honoring her 1372 01:22:57,138 --> 01:22:59,307 by doing an exhibition about her life 1373 01:22:59,391 --> 01:23:02,310 from a sort of sociopolitical point of view, 1374 01:23:02,394 --> 01:23:06,147 charting her life alongside how her life 1375 01:23:06,231 --> 01:23:08,817 had impacted on legal and societal change 1376 01:23:08,900 --> 01:23:09,901 in this country. 1377 01:23:11,069 --> 01:23:13,530 And I mean, I don't think she expected that exhibition 1378 01:23:13,613 --> 01:23:14,864 to be quite what it was, 1379 01:23:14,948 --> 01:23:17,117 because it was very grand in scale 1380 01:23:17,200 --> 01:23:20,328 and a million people came to see it. 1381 01:23:20,412 --> 01:23:21,413 Yeah. 1382 01:23:22,205 --> 01:23:25,000 She was very loved, I think, by people. 1383 01:23:25,083 --> 01:23:28,920 And I think that's something that mattered to her, you know. 1384 01:23:29,004 --> 01:23:31,256 -Now I'm getting upset. -I know. 1385 01:23:32,716 --> 01:23:34,843 It's ridiculous. She's been gone for two years. 1386 01:23:34,926 --> 01:23:36,845 -No, it's not. You loved her. -Oh. 1387 01:23:50,984 --> 01:23:52,444 How quick as I can. 1388 01:24:07,292 --> 01:24:08,376 Oh, darling. 1389 01:24:10,420 --> 01:24:13,006 Transition is very difficult 1390 01:24:13,089 --> 01:24:14,841 no matter what decade you do it in. 1391 01:24:14,924 --> 01:24:16,926 It sets you apart from society. 1392 01:24:17,010 --> 01:24:21,264 It sets you outside of your family, your friends. 1393 01:24:29,939 --> 01:24:31,399 Cheers. Cheers. 1394 01:24:31,483 --> 01:24:35,195 But the one thing that you get out of that 1395 01:24:35,278 --> 01:24:38,740 that is incredible and that gives you strength 1396 01:24:38,823 --> 01:24:39,824 is... 1397 01:24:40,909 --> 01:24:44,788 your trans siblings, you know, the sisterhood of trans women. 1398 01:24:52,754 --> 01:24:55,340 That kind of community 1399 01:24:56,007 --> 01:24:58,718 is, I think, what sustains 1400 01:24:58,802 --> 01:25:01,763 many of us in our day-to-day lives, 1401 01:25:01,846 --> 01:25:07,102 and especially the older women from previous generations. 1402 01:25:08,144 --> 01:25:11,189 I certainly don't put anyone down for being stealth. 1403 01:25:11,272 --> 01:25:15,401 I understand the struggle. I understand why people do it. 1404 01:25:15,485 --> 01:25:16,736 Hello. 1405 01:25:17,904 --> 01:25:22,117 But when I think about someone like Amanda Lear, 1406 01:25:22,867 --> 01:25:25,328 I think it must be really lonely at the top. 1407 01:25:26,996 --> 01:25:29,749 But that's the bargain she made, you know? 1408 01:25:33,753 --> 01:25:36,339 Do you really believe that Amanda is not trans? 1409 01:25:37,006 --> 01:25:38,550 Or is it just an open secret? 1410 01:25:47,267 --> 01:25:49,769 What I really believe? Okay. 1411 01:25:51,646 --> 01:25:52,647 All right. 1412 01:25:53,565 --> 01:25:55,316 How can I say this? 1413 01:25:57,861 --> 01:25:59,779 Respectfully so... 1414 01:26:01,197 --> 01:26:04,534 I believe that she's trans, yes. 1415 01:26:06,202 --> 01:26:09,831 But I want to say that I respect 1416 01:26:10,832 --> 01:26:14,627 her decision not to... 1417 01:26:16,588 --> 01:26:17,755 say it. 1418 01:26:17,839 --> 01:26:19,757 But I know that in France, 1419 01:26:19,841 --> 01:26:22,385 people accept her 1420 01:26:22,468 --> 01:26:24,971 as being a cisgendered woman 1421 01:26:25,054 --> 01:26:28,141 because that's the narrative she's given in Europe. 1422 01:26:29,601 --> 01:26:31,394 Which is amazing. 1423 01:26:32,604 --> 01:26:34,147 She did that well. 1424 01:26:34,814 --> 01:26:37,358 I mean, in the end, it doesn't really matter, right? 1425 01:26:41,237 --> 01:26:44,824 Well, you've had to fight so hard 1426 01:26:44,908 --> 01:26:46,534 for your identity as a woman. 1427 01:26:48,328 --> 01:26:50,830 Your-your whole public life, 1428 01:26:50,914 --> 01:26:53,708 you've been dogged by this question, 1429 01:26:53,791 --> 01:26:57,212 and you've always had to persist that you are a woman. 1430 01:26:58,213 --> 01:27:00,798 And that's very painful. 1431 01:27:03,218 --> 01:27:04,636 No problem for me. 1432 01:27:05,428 --> 01:27:06,763 No. Honestly. 1433 01:27:08,181 --> 01:27:11,017 But the women who said, "Yes, I am trans," 1434 01:27:11,100 --> 01:27:13,811 -they were not very successful. -But I'm not. 1435 01:27:15,897 --> 01:27:18,775 I'm not saying that. I never-never say that. 1436 01:27:18,858 --> 01:27:21,736 People say that, and I never deny. 1437 01:27:21,819 --> 01:27:25,156 I say, think what you want. You're free to think. 1438 01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:27,408 But I know who I am, you know? 1439 01:27:27,492 --> 01:27:30,036 Like the queen. Never complain, never explain. 1440 01:27:30,745 --> 01:27:33,748 I think you would not have the success 1441 01:27:35,375 --> 01:27:37,335 then, if you had said yes. 1442 01:27:38,920 --> 01:27:42,340 But I think you will have even more success now if you do. 1443 01:27:43,007 --> 01:27:44,008 Do you know what I mean? 1444 01:27:45,635 --> 01:27:47,178 It's weird, you know. 1445 01:27:48,346 --> 01:27:51,349 -It's very, very weird. -And it's up to you. 1446 01:27:52,392 --> 01:27:54,727 You are the epitome of... 1447 01:27:54,811 --> 01:27:57,981 -a successful woman. -Success. A success story. 1448 01:27:58,064 --> 01:28:01,693 And I can understand how in your time 1449 01:28:01,776 --> 01:28:04,404 in the 1960s and the 1970s, 1450 01:28:05,071 --> 01:28:06,948 you wouldn't have all of that. 1451 01:28:07,031 --> 01:28:09,492 Oh, no, it's completely different from now. Yeah. 1452 01:28:10,451 --> 01:28:11,911 It's very different. 1453 01:28:11,995 --> 01:28:15,290 It's easier, I suppose, for the girls now today, 1454 01:28:15,373 --> 01:28:16,791 or new generation. 1455 01:28:16,874 --> 01:28:18,668 Things have become a little easier. 1456 01:28:19,502 --> 01:28:21,921 In my days, it was a little more difficult to... 1457 01:28:22,588 --> 01:28:25,466 because people are-- were... 1458 01:28:26,342 --> 01:28:28,720 not bad, 1459 01:28:28,803 --> 01:28:31,848 but at least they say, how... 1460 01:28:31,931 --> 01:28:34,309 "What is it? We don't understand. 1461 01:28:34,392 --> 01:28:37,895 She's strange. What?" You know, all this going on. 1462 01:28:37,979 --> 01:28:39,605 It's easier today 1463 01:28:39,689 --> 01:28:42,984 to be accepted as a different person. 1464 01:28:43,067 --> 01:28:45,445 But it hasn't... 1465 01:28:45,528 --> 01:28:49,032 Well, perhaps our society changes. Anyway... 1466 01:28:49,115 --> 01:28:53,453 I wonder if you know who your legacy is for. 1467 01:28:54,704 --> 01:28:56,331 I don't realize that. 1468 01:28:56,414 --> 01:28:58,249 That's true. I don't realize. 1469 01:28:58,833 --> 01:29:02,170 I'm amazed sometimes when I see people's reaction 1470 01:29:02,253 --> 01:29:05,840 or the letters I receive, the messages. I'm amazed. 1471 01:29:05,923 --> 01:29:08,676 And it is a worry 'cause you have to-- For them, 1472 01:29:08,760 --> 01:29:12,055 you have to always be, you know, not perfect, 1473 01:29:12,138 --> 01:29:14,974 but at least trying your best not to disappoint them. 1474 01:29:15,058 --> 01:29:17,226 I would hate to disappoint people. 1475 01:29:17,977 --> 01:29:19,354 But it's in... 1476 01:29:20,229 --> 01:29:22,690 our flaws that we are human. 1477 01:29:22,774 --> 01:29:26,110 And to me, I don't idealize you. 1478 01:29:26,194 --> 01:29:28,029 I think that you're very human 1479 01:29:28,112 --> 01:29:30,823 and that's what makes you relatable. 1480 01:29:30,907 --> 01:29:33,159 And there's so many parts of your story 1481 01:29:33,242 --> 01:29:34,619 that I can relate to, 1482 01:29:34,702 --> 01:29:37,080 and also that I can't understand 1483 01:29:37,163 --> 01:29:39,374 because I didn't live in those eras. 1484 01:29:40,041 --> 01:29:43,127 I feel like I am a part of your legacy. 1485 01:29:44,670 --> 01:29:46,422 But you're much younger, darling. 1486 01:29:48,466 --> 01:29:51,469 And I know many girls 1487 01:29:51,552 --> 01:29:55,014 who are also a part of your legacy, 1488 01:29:55,098 --> 01:29:57,308 who admire you and look up to you 1489 01:29:57,392 --> 01:29:59,310 for all that you've accomplished. 1490 01:30:00,645 --> 01:30:02,188 And they're trans girls. 1491 01:30:03,064 --> 01:30:06,192 Yeah, there is a lot. Even in France, also in France. 1492 01:30:06,275 --> 01:30:09,028 But... I don't really know 1493 01:30:09,112 --> 01:30:11,322 what I can do for them. I don't know. 1494 01:30:11,406 --> 01:30:12,990 I have an idea. 1495 01:30:13,074 --> 01:30:15,243 Oh, you have an idea. What? 1496 01:30:15,326 --> 01:30:17,245 When you are remembered, 1497 01:30:17,370 --> 01:30:19,914 and when you have a legacy, you are eternal. 1498 01:30:20,832 --> 01:30:24,544 You have helped me become the person that I am today. 1499 01:30:25,253 --> 01:30:27,880 And now that I've met you, even more. 1500 01:30:28,589 --> 01:30:31,134 When I tell girls I was meeting you, 1501 01:30:31,217 --> 01:30:33,386 people were amazed. 1502 01:30:33,469 --> 01:30:36,973 -How do they know me? -Pioneers seldom... 1503 01:30:37,682 --> 01:30:41,978 understand the paths that they've blazed, 1504 01:30:42,061 --> 01:30:46,315 and you have just kept your eye on the horizon 1505 01:30:46,399 --> 01:30:48,276 and moved forward. 1506 01:30:48,359 --> 01:30:51,654 And so you have this path that you've blazed 1507 01:30:51,737 --> 01:30:54,532 and we're all walking in it. 1508 01:30:54,615 --> 01:30:57,034 The thing is that I never looked back, you see. 1509 01:30:57,118 --> 01:31:01,122 I don't know, I probably made many mistakes in the past, 1510 01:31:01,205 --> 01:31:02,957 but it doesn't matter. 1511 01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:04,959 It's gone. It's finished, the past. 1512 01:31:05,042 --> 01:31:07,587 And you should do the same. The past is past. 1513 01:31:07,670 --> 01:31:11,966 I mean, you're not the person you were 20 years ago, 1514 01:31:12,049 --> 01:31:14,010 and that's what's important. 1515 01:31:15,052 --> 01:31:18,389 But I learned so much from... 1516 01:31:19,098 --> 01:31:22,393 knowing about your history and your past 1517 01:31:22,477 --> 01:31:25,730 because it tells me how to move forward 1518 01:31:25,813 --> 01:31:27,148 and how to survive. 1519 01:31:29,692 --> 01:31:33,029 I think the main thing is not to listen to anybody. 1520 01:31:33,112 --> 01:31:35,239 You go your... 1521 01:31:35,323 --> 01:31:37,283 You know where you're going and you're going there. 1522 01:31:37,366 --> 01:31:39,827 You know what you want. You know where you wanna go. 1523 01:31:39,911 --> 01:31:40,995 Go there. 1524 01:31:41,120 --> 01:31:42,538 Which is why I keep saying, 1525 01:31:42,622 --> 01:31:45,666 I want to become the Greta Garbo of Provence. 1526 01:31:45,750 --> 01:31:48,169 That's it. You never see me again. Ever.